Why SF5 players hate on KI so much?

Capcom and SFV (a long and successful running IP) represent the PS4, Sony, and eastern ideals. IG and KI (a briefly popular IP strugggling to get back into the mainstream) represent the XB1 and MS, and western ideals. That’s my take from it at any rate.

They’re about as opposite as you could get. :wink:

I’ve not really seen any hate, but I can offer my opinion having come from SF and currently in an inner debate as to which I want to devote my time to.

My first, biggest, and really only gripe is that punishes don’t feel satisfying. I’ve noticed this recently when playing Shago who is a character seemingly designed around ambiguous, unsafe mix-ups. In SF, if you whiff a DP (or anything else stupidly unsafe), you lose half your life. That’s it. In KI, you have at worst (a pure guess) a one in three chance of losing almost nothing. I’m not sure how this scales as people get better since one’s ability to know what to break gets better, but so does ones ability to run tricky routes, add manuals, etc. Related, just by waiting, your opponent often ends up doing something fast, easy to cash out, hard to break, and fairly light on damage… so punishes don’t feel like punishes… not really. Not in the sense of literally any other fighter out there. That said, I generally like breakers and the associated mind game, but in the context of “oh my god that is so unsafe” type punishes, it leaves a bitter taste.

Related, breakers could piss off a few people. In SF, you earn your damage. You position well, you read well, you punish well and you get damage. That’s it. Here, you also have to earn your damage in the combo which can feel like having to earn it twice.

Footsies seem less important. I’m not a good enough player to actually say whether they are or aren’t, but they definitely feel that way where I am at now. If you come from SF, you probably value the neutral more than just about any single thing (it is what it has in spades), so I could see that being a put off for SF players.

Oh, combos feel initially quite unintuitive. Love 'em or hate 'em, links are fairly intuitive once you get used to them. Just recently picking up Wulf, I often feel like I’m just shaking my stick back and forth while mashing buttons. It just isn’t as intuitive… which I’d attribute to it being unlike anything in another fighter.

And my own personal hate, the never ending Ultra. Yes, I get it… you’re better than me. You whooped me super hard. Oh great… 20 minutes of Rash being as obnoxious as ever… yay.

Anyway, those are some potential reasons that someone from SF might not mesh with KI.

LOOOOL Good One XD

Every gaming genre has its staple rivalries

Call of Duty VS Battlefield
Street fighter VS Mortal Kombat
Overwatch VS Team Fortress 2
Halo VS Resistance
Mario VS Sonic

and one of the most popular PS4 VS XBOX ONE (and to an extent PC)

With Street fighter and Killer Instinct, usually it is the minorities which end up being the most vocal in situations like this but in the end it spreads like a disease and next thing you know there is a war

PS4 and Xbox one are a perfect example…Phil Spencer for example congratulates a lot of PS4 games for example and they do the same back and even Phil spencer said the console wars are distasteful, but people who start these web fights causes it to spread to others and next thing you know dumb phrases like X-BOTs or the Piss Poor or (the worst) PC MASTER RACE come into play

IN CONCLUSION - This is the internet (don’t need to say more XD)

I love all fighting games, so I win.

Oh and the SF people are probably just butthurt that SF5 turned out less than stellar to a lot of people.

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And he is entitled to it :wink:

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Three cases:
1.the team player (ye ole Coke & Pepsi stuff)

2.Defensive preemptive fink mode (assuming someone’s gonna be jerk to you, so you try to cut them by being the jerk first.)

3.Mr/Mrs. “I don’t like it, so everyone else should hate it” (the absolute worst!)

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I only own an xbox one, so I lose

@Iago407 and @BigBadAndy

The discussion about sales is certainly difficult for a number of reasons. One, MKX has been around for a year, and KI for well over two years. SFV came out in April. Two, KI was an X1 exclusive for a long time, which limited its reach; SFV is PS4/PC only, and all three games have very different DLC sales models. I wouldn’t go out on a limb and say MKX is doing so well, in fact it’s been falling off on Twitch and the pro circuit despite MKXL release, most likely because of the PC and netcode debacles (and the launch fiasco), and I also think the huge sales were largely due to brand loyalty - when I still played MKX, I had an evening gaming session with a few non-FGC friend, and all anyone ever wanted to do is do fatalities on each other; they didn’t care for learning the game. Point is, two of them went out and bought the game, one played it a few times, the other never did. That’s where a large chunk of sales comes from, I suspect.

I have no doubt that SFV has suffered majorly due to the numerous launch issues it has had. The KI PC launch wasn’t seamless, either, but it wasn’t that bad, plus it’s cheaper in general and free to try, so I think many more people took it for a test drive over SF. But without any concrete numbers, I don’t think this is a discussion worth continuing.

Now, when it comes to actual gameplay, I agree with @QSpec02, although I wouldn’t go as far as saying that it’s going to put people off of KI. It’s just a different game and playstyle. I happen to enjoy the straightforward nature of SFV more, but KI is great in its own right. But here’s my personal conundrum: I have a weekly local tournament for SF. I have people I can meet with and play SF in person. One of them plays KI as far as I know. Other than that, there’s nothing, I’m stuck with online. And while I’m from and in Poland, which has never had a huge fighting game scene, I’m pretty sure wherever you look, US included, you’ll find groups of people playing SF, while KI is pretty scarce. Level Up / Wednesday Night Fights used to do KI, but they dropped it, I assume due to lack of popularity. Which is a shame - but that’s the reality of it. Hopefully, the PC release will change things around.

Angry teens aside, I hope both games and communities do very well and continue to grow, but I’ll be playing SFV for the majority of my “serious” gaming time, while KI will be my chill-out, get your freak on and have fun game for when I need a break. Let’s revisit this conversation in a year or two, when SFV has matured.

I only own an XB1, and I still feel like a winner. :wink:

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Doing well in what sense? Are you talking about sales numbers or community engagement? MK has a fanbase that goes far beyond the FGC and in to the casual market. So of course, you’ll definitely see drop off over time. But the hardcore audience, from what I’ve seen at least, is still pretty engaged.

As for why MKX has fallen off the pro circuit, I hate to generalize, but the pro circuit has never been overly welcoming to Mortal Kombat. Of course, I give WB and NRS all the credit in the world for getting pro league stuff televised and putting some serious money behind it.

As far as MK falling off due to netcode debacles and the launch fiasco, KI had a steep hill to climb when it launched and SF was critically panned more than any Street Fighter I’ve ever seen due to the condition it launched in. MKX was still one of the biggest sellers last year while SFV didn’t even crack the PS4’s top 5 in sales in the month that it released. I think MK has a bit more going for it than brand loyalty.

C’mon, don’t bring anecdotal evidence in here. You talk about two friends and then extrapolate that in to “that’s where a large chunk of sales comes from, I suspect.” You honestly think that a large chunk of the people that bought the game either only played it a few times or never played it at all? Sorry, I’m not buying that. Even casuals buy video games to play them.

That’s your opinion and you’re more than entitled to it. I personally prefer KI to SF in terms of gameplay and I don’t see that changing in a year or two. What are you expecting to see different in a year or two? Just curious.

I mean, if we’re talking about how robust SF’s twitch streaming, youtube presence, etc will be, then I’ll absolutely concede that SF will have a thriving community. It’s a good game that should be great in time, but it’s also a legacy game and it has the added bonus of being the darling of the FGC. KI doesn’t have either of those things and MK definitely doesn’t have the second.

I hope SF does well though, as it’s usually been a bell cow for the genre as a whole. SF2 more or less launched the genre and SF4 more or less revived it. Maybe MK is more popular as a whole and I personally think that KI is more fun, but SF tends to be the lead dog, so at least in that sense, I want a thriving SF, a thriving FGC and a thriving genre overall.

It’s definitely in the FGC’s best interest that FGs in general succeed, regardless of franchise.

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Again, I speculate, but the Twitch numbers have been very low lately, even during the bigger tournaments this year. This directly serves to gauge player interest, and that intrest has been dropping steadily, I feel (but cannot prove). In what other sense would you have it do well? The majority of the sales is already behind is, it won’t get any better (see below).

Why not? Nothing wrong with anecdotal evidence, plus it’s the only “evidence” I have. But the casuals do fall off, as you’ve noticed, usually pretty quickly. And note that there were more of them at my placethat day, all gamers, and the others didn’t care one bit. So indulge me and do a little extrapolation, just for fun: if out of five people one’s a hardcore FGC player (who no longer plays the game in favor of SF and KI), two bought the game but never played online competitively (one never played at all) and two didn’t give a damn, how does that bode for the big picture?

Anyway, I believe MKXL is likely the last of MKX DLC, maybe outside of a few more free/MKX mobile costumes, and that the game is basically done. WB and NRS are likely well into working on Injustice 2 - after all, WB at least have proven over and over that the sales numbers are all they care about, and that would be the better way to generate income. Especially with the PC market no longer being a market for this game. You don’t have to agree, of course, let me know why you think otherwise if that’s the case.

I don’t know, but that’s what’s exciting. My point was that KI is in season three (but with a breath of new life due to the PC release, even more so since MK is no longer on the platform), MKX has had a bunch of DLC and fixes released, while SFV is brand new and still has a long way to go before it is fully established. It’s the new and big thing right now, but it might not always be, although I sure hope it will only continue to grow. I don’t know if you were around back when SFIV came out - I wasn’t, I just did some reading up and watching highlight matches - but the vanilla version of that game was very different than the final product in USFIV.

What’s wrong with anecdotal evidence is that it’s well… Anecdotal. It’s not indicative of anything. I could just as easily come back and say “yeah I played KI with one of my buddies a few weeks ago and he seemed to really enjoy it, so I see a huge future for KI with tons of players that love the game and a thriving community.”

I mean, there’s nothing to extrapolate off of there. As for zero fifths of the MK fanbase playing MK now, I don’t quite see how that’s the case. I also don’t think that only one fifth of the people that bought MKX could be classified as “hardcore.”

To me, there are different definitions of that term. For some, it may be going to tournaments, following the big name players, etc and if that’s you, then that’s fine. That’s a valuable part of the community.

There are also people that follow a game on sites like this, they play the crap out of the game, online or off, and they get a lot of enjoyment over a long period of time. Maybe they don’t go to tournaments, but they also don’t buy the game on a whim and stop playing a week later. I’d probably call these people more of the “middle layer.” Are they less hardcore than the tourney folks? Sure. But are they not hardcore at all? Well… I wouldn’t say that.

I think that MK has a LOT more of this type of fan than you seem to believe. I really don’t think it’s just a small hardcore audience and then a giant amount of casuals that drop the game in a week or a month. If you disagree though, no problem. :slight_smile:

I do think though that after a year plus, that MKX is on its way out. Casuals make the sales, but even the middle layer and the hardcore can’t keep a game at it’s height in the tourney scene when that scene is so thoroughly dominated by Capcom enthusiasts that would rather saw off their own hands than play MKX.

Yeah, I was around. I was so happy with that game and what it did for the genre. Sure, MK had been trudging along through it’s 3D era (for better or worse), and we were still getting iterations of stuff like Tekken and Soul Calbiur, but SFIV came out when I tend to think the FGC needed it the most. I agree that the original was different from where it ended up in Ultra, so that will be exciting to watch for SFV.

I dunno, I just can’t bring myself to be nearly as excited for SFV as I was for SFIV. The gameplay is solid, but the art style, the character design, I still haven’t found anything in that game that makes me want to latch on and stick with it for a while. Hopefully that’ll change though! The more FGs, the merrier.

I tend to think of casual players as those who jump on the next new thing and don’t actually represent any sort of brand or IP loyalty, but I could be wrong and you could be right. I stand by my opinion on MKXL. I do hope, however, that KI gets the recognition it deserves - and I’ll be around to see it if it happens.

And just as a side note, when I say hardcore player, I don’t necessarily mean the no-life, 12h a day recluse of old, nor do I mean that guy who flies around to every major and places top 8 every time. I just mean someone who takes a competitive game seriously, studies it in-depth, discusses it and plays to improve and eventually compete, rather than just have fun. So perhaps my wording could have been more accurate.

Let’s leave it at that, and let me just reitarate - make love, not hate. :wink:

PS.

It’s certainly indicative of something, it’s just that my sample size was very, very small (and your example even smaller) and therefore not particularly conclusive. But you should not disregard anectodal evidence altogether; I used to do combat sports and now dabble in powerlifitng and I was surprised by how many times anecdotal evidence (gathered by coaches over the years) trumps actual studies (which are very often not controlled tightly enough, use “average” subject and so on). But that’s neither here nor there - if we don’t have actual sales numbers and Twitch trends, then it’s all speculation.

regarding MK etc… MK was announced, in october, to reach over 5 million copies sold. Street Fighter 4 (original release) was around 4 million, but with all the versions, the total is around 8 million. The issue here, many of those sales are probably dup buys from the same people, so the actual # of people who own Street fighter would be less than 8 million.

And that’s as of October — MK X is probably still going to sell due to the casual appeal for the crazy violence and iconic characters (+ true story mode).

Regards,

sanjay

I think the game is “on its way out” more so because NRS has trained the community to only support their games in the tourney scene for 2 years or so. NRS’s cycle since 2002 or so has been a new game every 2 years. People are waiting (anecdotal evidence here) for Injustice 2 (or whatever) to be announced, and for NRS to drop support of MKX in lieu for the next title.

Along with that though, people need to understand that the NRS scene is just wholly different than the Capcom scene. People seem to want to compare the different tourney scenes, but they couldn’t be further from each other. The MK scene has more in common with the KI scene in this respect, as most of the players play online, and don’t go to locals as they were never a focus through out most of the MK’s history. That is primarily why the NRS scene in SoCal (and so many others) fell off; people just want to say at home and play in there online clans and such, and online tourneys.

You have to remember, when MK Deception released (2002) touting its online play, the SF community was still doing the offline thing, and (slowly) growing (despite there being no new titles). MK moved WHOLLY into the online scene space with each successive title until 2009 when MK9 was released, and by that time SF had been rolling for at least 15 years. The SF offline scene has been cultivating, and fostering itself since the mid / late 90’s, as that is where Evo came from. That is where all the grass roots events came from. All the other FG scenes out there trying to move into the offline scene are/have been aping of SF decades long ground work for years now, because SF have built itself up as the back bone of the Offline FGC.

Regardless though, the NRS’s online scene is still pretty big (especially since the explosion with MK9, and primarily on PS platforms), which is why this season of ESL switched to supporting both the X1 and the PS4. Furthermore, this current season of ESL has seen FAR more people entering than previous seasons (granted that previous seasons were ONLY on X1). So yeah, all that doesn’t translate well/directly into offline local participation.

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People have to remember. TOurney scene means jack for a corporation.

You want game sales - look @ Diablo 3 (20 million+), Skyrim (20 million+), Call of Duty (1 trillion plus, etc :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: ) .

Corporations care about their income. The # of people that will buy a game due to tournaments is small since the # of viewers for that is small compared to teh actual casual buyer base.

Overall, the goal should be to make a great game and keep new content coming to drive sales. More sales = revenue =profit = more content coming.

Then, a well established pro scene will develop - Dota, StarCraft 2, CoD, etc.

Regards,

Sanjay

Another thing to add to this, is that SF4 sold that 8 Mil number over the course of 7 years.

at the end of the day, it is hard to compare MK and SF in terms of sales because MK’s sales aren’t as transparent, but I think it is pretty clear that in terms of sales NRS games sell equal to, if not more than, SF games, especially in the US. You have to remember that NRS games primarily sell in the US, but also only in Latin America, CERTAIN parts of Europe, and (as I just found out) Russia. SF sells well in the US, but overall it has more success (compared to MK) in those other territories due to MK’s insane gore and violence, and tendency for being banned (lol).

While SF was selling well in Germany, and other places like Australia, MK was banned in those countries. MK wasn’t unbanned in Germany until July of last year. Lol!

Excuse me sir. DOTA, LoL and CS would like to have a word with you.