Wait…it’s shadow maya. It all makes sense. They wouldn’t do TWO S1 shadow characters. Has to be maya. Only logical explanation.
Why is everyone assuming that the other 2 characters are going to be remixes? Did i miss a post somewhere?
Now before someone uses Keits post as a reply, he was talking about Omen and Shadow Jago being remix characters also, and that Kilgore was not the only remixed character.
Why shadow Orchid anyway? Why not shadow spinal, shadow riptor, or even shadow Aganos?
Its pretty safe to assume that these characters are part of their new “constant flow” of new monthly content they’ve promised, you wouldn’t assume they’re going to put full-fledged funding and dev time into filler content like this so since the survey asked about remixes, we assume they’re remixes and that the actual characters are for the next season, so this is just to hold us over.
That is an assumption, there is no proof either way but we do know there will be more “remixes” sooner or later.
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Nightshade is an actual plant so it’s fair game. As long as the character 1. Isn’t in a comic, and 2. Isn’t substantially similar to the Marvel character they would be on very solid ground.
I’ve suggested nightshade long time ago for hisako and then they told me it was too MK.
How many totally identical moves does a clone character have? 70%? 90%?
How many does a Remix have?
Try comparing Ryu/Ken, or Mario/DrMario, and Jago/Shago or Jago/Omen to get an idea.
What happens to your definition when a character’s “clone” has impossible moves from OTHER characters?
What happens if a move looks similar but behaves in a totally different way? Slower? Faster? Stronger? Weaker? Range change?
What about moves that LOOK different but behave the same? Same speed and range?
Thought exercise.
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I get that you don’t like the Shadow Orchid idea and that’s 100% fine. I’d never presume to tell you what to think. But, ya know, some people actually DO like this character idea. Maybe you could respect that too, even if only a tiny bit?
I don’t like the Shark TJ idea, I’ve tried to understand it, but I fail to see the appeal. Still, you don’t see me calling him “Shart TJ” or LOLing about something I haven’t even seen yet. I’m also not flinging pejoratives at the idea like it’s going out of style simply because I don’t like it. Any chance you could show others that same common, base level courtesy?
The fact of the matter is that while calling her Shadow Orchid in the poll seems to indicate that’s her name and possibly what she’ll look like, we still only have our own preconceived notions to go off of and until we see something, that’ll never be 100% accurate.
So yes, she could be Orchid with Shago colored skin and gurgles, or she can also be a remix. She could be Roxy or Kara or she could still be a shadow, yet look entirely different or she could be entirely different than what we’re guessing at here, even if she shares some moves and animations from other characters.
I’ll grant you that those latter possibilities might be less or even far less likely than what we think she’ll end up looking like (assuming she actually happens at all), but they’re still possibilities none the less.
But if none of those appeal to you, that’s your taste and that’s cool. I’m not asking you to like anything you don’t like or hide your opinion and I’m not saying it because of hurt feelings or PC police reasons or anything else even remotely in that realm. I’m just saying that you can dislike something and be a little more chill about it, ya know?
I think part of it is a terminology issue. Some say remix, some say clone, and they see those terms as interchangeable regardless of how different the move set is because they’re not just looking at reused moves (regardless of how they behave) and animations (regardless of what they actually do), they’re also considering things that I’m guessing you find much less valuable to the conversation; the look standpoint and the lore standpoint.
To some, Jago and Shadow Jago are the same person. Shago just happens to be possessed by Omen, therefore, Shago is a “clone” of Jago. Ben Farris and Cinder, same deal.
Change Ben Farris’ name to Sargent Pants and give him his own story and all of a sudden, he’s not Cinder, regardless of whether the same body is used or some animations / moves are recycled; he’s still his own guy. Some might be more accepting of Sargent Pants because of this. Along that same logic line, Kilgore and Fulgore are not the same. Even though Kilgore has Fulgore’s body with alterations, I think more people are more accepting because he has his own name, identity, etc to go along with a largely unique move set.
However, some still see him as a clone because of the look aspect, to go along with some recycled animations. Obviously, everyone has their own (nitpicky) guidelines here, which is why making any type of argument, whether it be gameplay or otherwise, can be more difficult than it should be.
I’m guessing you probably don’t want to hear the lore argument since gameplay is king. I get that. But this is what I’ve been running in to when talking about Shadow Orchid and why a fully unique character that’s not a “version” of an existing character is preferable to some, even if that might not be the choice you guys have on the development side.
Personally, I don’t think it’s a big deal if they’re an alternate version of an existing character the way Shago is for Jago or the way Kilgore is to Fulgore, so long as they play well, look cool and have an interesting story.
Others want the latter version for lore reasons and others prefer monsters to humans and still others prefer fully unique characters with completely new looks, name, story, animations, moves, etc. That may not be the choice you have, but if given the choice, that’s what they want, regardless of how much new gameplay can be created with reused animations and moves.
TL/DR: Sorry, probably a lot more nuance in this than was needed. Some care about lore as much or more than gameplay in terms of what separates a character and makes them unique. Some care about both and see both as requirements.
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I think this is the best way to look at it. The properties of an attack play a bigger role in someone’s gameplan than the actual animation. Recycling moves doesn’t make a character a clone. Sharing animations, but giving them different properties creates unique gameplay. IF Shago had all of Jago’s moves AND played like a shoto, he would be a clone. But since Shago is a mixup/rushdown sort of character, he plays nothing like Jago at all. Shared animation and design elements do not make a clone, rather, it’s a lack of differentiation in gameplay that would make a character a clone.
Whether or not you enjoy recycled designs or animations is up to you, but it is fact that Omen and Shago play nothing like Jago, so they aren’t clones.
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I’m using the word shadow as a metaphor. Is Joanna Dark a shadow-based character? NO. I’m talking about what a persons “shadow” represents.
I don’t understand
You mean Remix instead of shadow?
Or is something else?
You’re confusing my usage of the word shadow as something relating to shadow-based characters such as Omen, Shadow Jago, etc. I’m not talking about remixes or shadow-based characters.
Clone: Marth and Roy, Mario and Dr. Mario, Ryu and Ken
Nearly identical movesets aside from different speeds and properties.
Remix: Jago and Shadow Jago, Jago/Saberwulf and Omen
Share some moves, several others are radically different and make entirely unique gameplay.
There’s definitely a grey area, but I definitely see KI’s characters as much less on the “clone” side. Shago and Omen have a lot of unique moves and abilities, and play almost nothing like the characters they borrow from.
You have to understand that is easily misinterpretable, so I suggest you to use another one, since shadow is widely used to refer shadow characters like shadow jago
If it’s not a remix, what exactly are you suggesting?
People judging and dismissing a character based off of a name and what another character looks like in this case Shago… hmm wonder where I’ve heard this before? Cough cough Eyedol cough.
So is it safe to assume the other 2 newbies are remixes as well?
Ryu and Ken started out as clone and now moved to remix territory.
I’d say shago/omen are jago remixes but they still wear the eau de clone scent.
[quote=“Iago407, post:167, topic:17171”]
I get that you don’t like the Shadow Orchid idea and that’s 100% fine. I’d never presume to tell you what to think. But, ya know, some people actually DO like this character idea. Maybe you could respect that too, even if only a tiny bit?
I don’t like the Shark TJ idea, I’ve tried to understand it, but I fail to see the appeal. Still, you don’t see me calling him “Shart TJ” or LOLing about something I haven’t even seen yet. I’m also not flinging pejoratives at the idea like it’s going out of style simply because I don’t like it. Any chance you could show others that same common, base level courtesy?
The fact of the matter is that while calling her Shadow Orchid in the poll seems to indicate that’s her name and possibly what she’ll look like, we still only have our own preconceived notions to go off of and until we see something, that’ll never be 100% accurate.
So yes, she could be Orchid with Shago colored skin and gurgles, or she can also be a remix. She could be Roxy or Kara or she could still be a shadow, yet look entirely different or she could be entirely different than what we’re guessing at here, even if she shares some moves and animations from other characters.
I’ll grant you that those latter possibilities might be less or even far less likely than what we think she’ll end up looking like (assuming she actually happens at all), but they’re still possibilities none the less.
But if none of those appeal to you, that’s your taste and that’s cool. I’m not asking you to like anything you don’t like or hide your opinion and I’m not saying it because of hurt feelings or PC police reasons or anything else even remotely in that realm. I’m just saying that you can dislike something and be a little more chill about it, ya know?
[/quote]I don’t really do though, do I?
KI has always prided itself on variation, on diversity, if we have to have clones why have copies of copies? Its an outlandishly bad idea in my eyes, the possessed hero trope has been done so we don’t need another one. Its not the idea of an Orchid clone that bugs folks, it’s the rehashed theme.
You can’t tell me that you wouldn’t be up in arms right now if people were begging for a prototype version of ARIA with machine gun hands too and you’d be right to voice your distaste for it, because the theme has been done and you think its a waste of space in KI.
I’ll admit I’ve been pretty one-sided about all of this and that is regrettable but I love this game and want whats best for it and Shadow Orchid is probably one of the worst ideas we’ve ever had.
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Remix, clone, I don’t care..I’m gonna give these characters a shot and have fun. At least it’s not as heavily rehashed as the Ruy, Ken dynamic.
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To be honest that’s what it comes down to at the end of the day.
Whatever they do, I know it’ll be fun to play I just wish we didn’t have to beat a dead horse with the theme.
Since KI launched everyone has had these issues. You want to know why? It’s because KI is a budget game and it’s literally doing nothing to hide that fact. It’s making it more obvious if anything. People hated that Ultimates weren’t in the game, people hated that Omen was just a rehash borrowed animations character, Kilgore is basically the same thing.
KI fans just want to have a game they can be proud of. It’s hard to do that when new fighting games are doing everything we asked for, making it look better, and leaving KI in the dust in process. Just look at how many threads there have been of people asking for skins. Look at SFV and all the cool holiday skins they just released. Look at Akuma, they actually treated him as his own character instead of making him a copy and paste like Omen, Shadow Orchid, and Kilgore are.
Some of you are even saying “well the character isn’t even out yet” well looking at the past we can see how Shadow Orchid will look. Heck even Shago has some copied Jago animations.
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http://i.onionstatic.com/avclub/5280/69/16x9/960.jpg
He’s looking great!
Seriously though, nothing you’re saying really resonates with me. Omen/shago/kilgore are far from copy+paste. If you spend like…2-3 minutes with them in training mode that’s extremely obvious. If anything SFV has a far bigger problem with characters that don’t feel distinct from one another. They may be visually distinct, but their overall gameplan doesn’t bring enough variety.
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