… Who are you again?
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This seems to be a pretty common misconception that I’d like us to reconsider. His looks are only really “ninja-esque” in terms of the mask and anime hair, I’d say he does indeed more resemble a monk (though not as much as we’d like) than a ninja, except by NRS standards (which I sorta think are absurd, but to each his own).
Insofar as his gameplay goes, I’d say there is literally nothing about him that resembles the ninja archetype (think SF Ibuki, MvC Strider, or KoF Mai) unless again we resort to the NRS standard, which is really a wonky sort of pseudo-shoto. Jago’s gameplay is very much Shoto, through and through.
The ninja-archetype (gameplay-wise) is usually repped by high mobility and unorthodox usage of disjoint (projectiles) - this is where Sadira comes into play. Both visually and in gameplay, she is our ninja character, and that’s really not a debatable fact.
Though I definitely agree that if Sadira is our Bang, a Hibiki is most certainly welcome! And possibly some more costuming options to really bring out the monk elements of Jago and finally put this silly debate to rest!
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Movelist wise, yes, Jago is a shoto-clone indeed. However, what I meant is that the more flashy kinda of ninja archetype is the more typical seen in fighting games than the stealthy, shadow assassin type. However, some are definitely different. I would say that Mai is still within that archetype, along with Bang, Scorpion and Sub-Zero, but Ibuki, Hibiki and even Smoke and Noob (and to some extend, Reptile) is more about the traditional kind of representation of a ninja.
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Yeah, I can see your point. Soz for the misunderstanding. Though Mai is definitely a ninja, all-in. The more flashy type, ala Bang or Ibuki, for sure, but she is def ninja.
Taki too. I always forget about Taki. Though IIRC she’s way more about the mobility, and doesn’t actually utilize any disjoint…?
Scorpion and Sub-Zero are interesting cases. Usually flagship characters tend to share archetypes, but in their cases I think Scorpion tends closer to traditional ninja gameplay w/ his teleports and chain-toss, whereas Sub leans more toward “shoto” play with his fireball and ice-clone-backdash thing functioning as a weird sort of uppercut, with slides as forward-moving strikes to boot. I wish there were a better colloquialism for fireball>uppercut characters, as shoto really doesn’t feel right as a descriptor. But I’ve played zero MKX (I’m a hater, shrug) so I could totally be wrong here, I’m just providing my uninitiated observation.
The thing is about Jago is he was designed to be an amalgamation of several eastern warrior types…monks, ninjas, whatever Ken & Ryu have going on, etc.
And while he was lore-wise a monk of made-up tiger spirit martial arts temple somewhere in Tibet his KI1 & 2 designs in particular are more akin to the pop culture definition of “ninja”.
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Is Jago a ninja or a monk?
Is Riptor a dinosaur or a cyborg?
Is Spinal a skeleton or a pirate?
Is Hisako a ghost or a samurai?
Here’s the flaw in your logic.
Ninja and Monk are both occupations.
Dinosaur, skeleton and ghost are all “species”. Jago’s species is human. Where as pirate and samurai are occupations. Having a species and then an occupation is rather typical.
In Riptor’s case, cyborg is not her occupation, but rather a description of her having cybernetic enhancements done to her body. Any species could have that, and still have an occupation as well. And Riptor’s occupation would be Ultratech soldier/minion.
Jago’s story clearly states his occupation as monk. However, yes, he could have been trained as an assassin as well, but we have seen absolutely nothing that indicates such. The only thing about him that says “ninja” is him wearing a mask, and I personally do not accept that that’s the ONLY thing it takes to be a ninja!
It’s vomit-inducing how much in pop-culture that people have just accepted that if it wears a mask, then it’s a ninja, no matter how little that character acts as a ninja.
Ninja means assassin. An assassin is someone who kills people without getting noticed. And a ninja is someone trained in the way of the shinobi, which is a certain class of assassination techniques developed in Japan.
Giving someone a mask on and then a sword does not a ninja make. Actually, wearing a mask is not even a criteria to become a ninja at all. Ninjas used to hide amongst the public, appearing like normal farmers and civilians, to get close to their target, and then strike, only to melt back into the crowd and become unseen.
That’s NOT what Jago does at all! Nothing about Jago actually shows him being a ninja one bit!
All that said though, when staying within pop-culture fighting game ninjas… then yes, Jago fits the bill… because he wears a mask and has a sword. Because that’s all it takes to be a ninja in a fighting game.
#-SIGH-
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That Jago is just a non-canon joke costume, nothing more. Such is the joy of a proper reboot.
EDIT: @anon39655210 OMG I love you! THANK YOU! SOMEONE WILLING TO USE THEIR NOODLE!
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Nope. Their retros are canon. They have been ever since they started using them as extra assets for story mode. Jago’s retro is used in Shadow Lords when he’s reflecting on his time spent at his temple fight before Shago shows up to challenge him.
Salty indeed.
Here’s the flaw in your assessment: you overthink simple things. None of those things were “species” or “occupations”; they are all TROPES.
Also, remember Jago was originally designed in the crazy 90s, where stereotypes were all the rage (remember Chief Thunder?), so back then having a ninja playing the part of a Tibetan monk made as much sense as having a secret agent turning into a tiger out of nowhere or a skeleton being revived by a regenerative cell experiment. People didn’t care about those things back then, they just wanted to pick the “ninja dude” and pit him against the “boxer guy” (who just happened to be so stereotipically black!)
PS: Also, if Jago really was a Tibetan monk, then why would he speak Japanese? Because he does (in KI2)…
And another PS (sorry):
This would make a ninja character virtually impossible to represent in a fighting game, then.
Bottom line, I’m not saying he IS a ninja. But he sure fits the bill, design-wise. And so does Sadira (even more).
Tropes being another word for stereotypes. I’m aware. That does not negate anything I said though.
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Oh for real? I stand corrected. My bad.
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I was wrong when I said it earlier, bit this really IS non-canon. No happenings of KI1or2 are canon anymore. Reboot erases all that. So unless he speaks Japanese now, he has effectively never spoken Japanese.
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Double Helix did an awesome job with Thunder’s current look. His main one. This:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/JtYZJNVo94M/maxresdefault.jpg
They took a step away from the stereotype and did their research. They made a character representing a Native American tribe without being insensitive or racist. And Thunder is the coolest Native American character in any fighting game I have ever seen!
So why is it alright to just throw every Asian sterotype into one melting pot and be racist against them?
Double Helix tried to be more cultural sensitive with Jago as well, making him appear more like a Tibetan warrior monk with his new looks, and they did a really good job!
Jago is awesome! He looks so cool, imo. AS A TIBETAN WARRIOR MONK!
Because that’s what he is. There’s no need to keep claiming he is a ninja too. He is awesome without having that trope shoved into his character. It is unnecessary and cultural insensitive.
Iron Galaxy took up the mantle and did an awesome job with Season 2. TJ is an excellent representation of a strong black man from the US. Maya is an awesome Latin woman with ties to the Inca Empire. And all the new characters are doing the exact same thing, representing each of their culture and “trope” without disrespecting anyone.
SO!!! My point is, if it were up to me (which I know it isn’t, but this is my feedback), I would stop trying to make Jago appear like a ninja, and then have an actual GOOD representation of a ninja in the game instead.
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It’s almost S[quote=“TheRealSkyle, post:51, topic:16153”]
PS: Also, if Jago really was a Tibetan monk, then why would he speak Japanese? Because he does (in KI2)…
[/quote]
I’m sure you know this but just in case. You do realize that you don’t have to be born in Japan to learn Japanese right? It’s not out of the ordinary to learn another language of a nation living inside your region…
I think that most of us can agree that Jago, in the old KI games, filled the ninja role and came rather close to looking the part, even if the clothing rips were so 80’s it hurt lol.
However, in the new game, I really think the only things ninja-like about him are that he a) has a mask, and b) still has the ninja associate thanks to the previous games. If you created a brand new character that looked like how Jago looks in this game and you took the mask away, I honestly don’t think anyone would look at him as well as his story and think “that’s KI’s ninja.”
But that’s just my opinion. 
As for Sadira, again, I don’t think that having the assassin occupation automatically makes her “the ninja” character either. Nothing about her look, either old or new, suggests ninja and her moves don’t seem very ninja-like either. No ninja weapons, no teleporting / use of misdirection.
I will say this though, and it goes for both Jago and Sadira, I would love it if MS could put out some costumes for these characters that fit their story even more, because I think if they did, we’d see characters that don’t fall in to realm of a ninja character.
I posted these in the costume thread, but here were my ideas for Jago and Sadira:
For Jago, a more traditional monk look:
For Sadira, a more traditional muay thai fighter look:
Seeing those, and seeing that these looks are a part of these character’s stories, even if they don’t exist in the game, is enough to show me that a more stereotypical ninja character, who has the look and uses some of the many weapons I suggested above and also has the fighting traits associated with a ninja can more than fit in to this game comfortably without stepping on any other characters shoes.
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Indeed. Nor does he have to be born in Tibet (which we now firmly know he wasn’t, after months of lengthy discussions on this topic) to be hailing from Tibet. But not only it is unrealistic (if he trained all his life in Tibet, his main language, his special attack names, his post-match greeting ought to be in Tibetan), it further shows that the developers were just cramming more ninja/martial artist stereotypes into the character in a Western perspective.
After all, he was an amalgam of two types of fan-favorite characters from the two most dominant fighting games of the time: the ninjas from MK and the shotos from SF. We can argue that Rare wanted to have a ninja/martial artist in the game but at the same time wanted to give him an original backstory - enter the Tibetan monk background.
Everything else can be traced to either the MK ninjas (mask, overall appearance) or the shotos, namely Ryu (head sash, moveset, personality). The blade - which was clearly modeled after a katana - was even more interesting, as it was cybernetically-enchanced in the first game and glowed like a laser (even the attack’s name was - and still is - “Laser Sword”); I’m willing to bet this aspect was heavily inspired by Strider, a futuristic ninja equipped with high-tech weaponry.
But, again, I’m not saying he IS a ninja. Only that his original design (of which some elements were carried on to the current design) is heavily based around one. He certainly looks a lot less like a ninja today, but would an actual ninja really stand out from Jago, appearance-wise? To me, only if he/she was radically different from a common (i.e., “grounded”) ninja.
On a side note, whereas Thunder has been redesigned based on social and cultural awareness, I still think Jago is lagging behind, since (at least to my knowledge) there is no such thing as a Tibetan warrior monk. The closest thing I can recall are the Shaolin.
Didn’t Kim have a shuriken ultimate in ki2
To be clear, when I say Sadira is our ninja character, I am speaking to her gameplay elements, and absolutely not to her visual design.
She does utilize misdirection w/ her multi-directional double jump. It’s not visually typical of a ninja, but it does qualify as archetypal ninja gameplay. The same is true of what I call “unorthodox disjoint” in her air kunai attacks - there are 2 air kunai that subtly affect her jump arc, and one that can start a ground combo. I would argue that these are very much indicative of archetypal fighting game ninja techniques - the key here is “fighting game ninja” and not “real life ninja”.
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