Yes, it is negative, but with only 1 chunk it can become dangerous. You can’t easily throw him out of it (at chunk level 0 or 1) since it has pushback on block and many grounded heavy normals will get stuffed by the 2nd attack (in my experience).
I still personally dont think its worth the risk, glad you have some success with it though.
That’s the whole point of the burnout enders. I’m giving up a potential 50% combo for a much more paltry amount of damage a level 4 is worth when compared to most other characters level 4 enders. I should be awarded pretty heavily for giving up large damage and screen position, as I’m not even at a screen or frame advantage from using them.
The burnout enders last like so: lvl 1 is almost 2 seconds, lvl 2 is slightly above 3, lvl 3 is around 5, and lvl 4 is around 8. Now that level four on Cinder’s low damage payout is usually around 40-50% (where Jago is around 50-60% with his damage ender), but I’m giving that up for probably 30% at best. So if you want to justify that sacrifice in damage, that burnout had better be worth it. The duration of them was already nerfed once, nerf them any more and they’ll disappear almost as fast as you add them on to the opponent.
Further, Cinder’s gameplan revolves around them and controlling the neutral. They aren’t that hard to deal with in most instances, but some people choose to simply ignore them and make fatal mistakes in their offense and defense that lose them the round. Since he doesn’t have good range like some characters on his normals, and his specials have lower than normal priority, and require good situations and setups to make the best use of them, Cinder’s gameplan to incorporate the burnout enders is far too important to justify nefing their duration, at least without turning up the white damage accumulation rate to counterbalance the duration nerf.
Basically, reducing his burnout enders risks ruining his metagame and his match control. If you think its bad now, you should have played him at launch, his burnouts lasted 3, 5, 8 and 10 seconds on their respective levels, and it was really hard to tell when they went away, and many people would accidently fan them back by accident. They’re good as they are now.
I actually play cinder a bit myself, I remember they lasted a bit longer, I think Id be willing to compromise burnout being shorter for the white damage building faster, if you can open me up in such a shorter time you deserve it, right now it just feels like the oppression of pressing burnout buttons in the neutral is just too long imo. Id probably make it lvl1 2 secs, lvl2 3 sec’s, lvl3 4 sec’s and lvl4 6 sec’s or something like that.
My problem with most of this changes is that they seem to be here just for personal preference. The fact that you said [quote=“KingOnimaru, post:1, topic:14583”]
Shadow Jago: Pretty sure this guy is okay as is, might give jago’s air flipout to him since shago is mixup oriented, if he already has a flipout then nevermind.
This suggests that you are not sure about Shago having or not a flipout. If you don’t know the characters tools, you can’t throw random changes to the table.
Also, anyway, you suggested some very big changes here. I suggest smaller changes (as they are easier to adapt and accept) than game changing suggestions.
Just my opinion
@KingOnimaru Don’t u think, u are about to hurt some peoples who likes the actual characters they mains ?
i dont even play jago or thunder but **
never ask a nerf
** for a character u dont play cause thats just
to people’s playing that characters. no salt.
Also the best way to improve a game is nope to kill the characters skills but let them be free in the best way as possible without make them too OP.
As a Jago player, I wouldn’t be too worried about this. He doesn’t benefit much from flipout. It’s there to enhance Jago’s anti-air game and give launcher ender a reason to exist (you’re not getting serious juggle damage after an ender, so the only reason to do launcher is to control the next phase of the match via either flipout or sweep), but Jago’s anti-airs are plenty strong and I can live without launcher ender
Jago still isn’t a serious zoner. Fireball charging/cancelling is useful for creating a nuisance for zoners to help Jago get in, but Jago does need to close space in matchups against zoners (including Fulgore and Shago), and the fireballs aren’t a serious problem for most rushdown-oriented characters – in fact in many matchups they’re a good way to get yourself murdered from midscreen. The strongest use of fireballs is for pressure extension outside of the range of laser sword.
- There are better frame trappers in the game. Wulf and Riptor outclass Jago handily in this department, with better ways of getting (back) in whilst preserving their offensive turn. Fulgore has most of the frame trapping capabilities of Jago, but with respectable zoning and projectile rushdown games which flow into each other.
- Patience generally beats Jago’s pressure. His throw range is terrible (press MK in your opponent’s face and you’re already slightly out of range), meaning he largely relies on his (reactable) overhead and dash cancels to open up opponents. Against a Wulf or Riptor player every offensive turn could be another trap or any one of three or four strong mixups.
As such, strong damage helps Jago make his openings count, and getting the big two-meter unbreakable damage requires (1) holding onto two bars, even using battery ender to generate them; (2) racking up a few levels of PD the honest way first; and (3) giving up important meter-requiring neutral tools afterwards.
My concern if Jago’s damage gets nerfed too much, is that even if Jago can still get in enough damage during a match to contend with the rest of the cast (which would depend on the size of the nerf), his attritional strategy of getting damage by punishing things like walking foward in neutral and pressing buttons when at frame disadvantage could become this boring, death-by-a-thousand-papercuts grind if it has to drag on long enough to convert enough scarce openings.
I guess I’d also like to spare a moment for reflection, though I’ve aired similar thoughts before.
If I’ve been worried about anything IG has done this season (by-and-large I haven’t been all that worried and think IG has done a great job, but nevertheless), it’s that there seems to have been a tapering down of things which made other characters powerful and dirty – this which made Killer Instinct Killer Instinct – which I sense has bouyed Jago to the top, and I worry that it’s gone a little far, and that it’s got the “yesssss, sensible, patient foo-foo-FOOTSIES” crowd salivating at the prospect of toning down Jago as well. It reminds me of a libertarian politician cutting taxes during an economic boom, then during the following bust breaking it to the public that services are gonna have to be cut. Given a few more generations of this I could wake up to a game where we play fireball-DP and trade normal pokes and whiff-punishes from roughly a character-length away.
Also, when you learn to throw something like shadow fireball, fireball xx shadow DP onto the end of a combo, you feel like a goddamn wizard. That seems to be why IG brought back mantis cashouts, why you can find things with Riptor like backrun tail into light tailflip recap, why they made juggles more of a thing in general, etc. If all the cool things have to be taken out of the game for the sake of keeping characters honest across the board, then that’s disappointing.
^What this guy here said.
Mira gets access to tools that no other character gets just for spending life, and doing so brings live a command grab with just about the same properties and lifeswing as shadow CotE.
Honestly, if someone came back through time from a year from now and said “haha, yeah, uh it turns out Mira was busted,” I wouldn’t be too surprised.
lol, Mira is the worst character to attempt to guess break.
Some characters I feel more confident with my balance changes than others but most of the changes Im suggesting are trying to make the game balanced or making a character more thought provoking instead of linear/one dimensional or are simply trying to equalize risk/reward. As I said above I wasnt sure about giving shago a flipout but after reading infils comment I now think no changes are probably the best thing for shago. As for small changes I tend to agree but I feel some of the more powerful linear characters really need a second look at.
@G0tei13Izaragi People always say buff characters up instead of nerfing but it doesnt work, even if everything in the game is balanced by everyone being broken alot of the intelligent gameplay decisions and depth can be lost as a result. Its alot more consistent to nerf what is overpowered than to overpower what is weak.
@Fnrslvr Thanks for the detailed reply.
As for your worry for killer instinct being too honest im simply removing what imo is the really dumb stuff or linear stuff from KI there is still plenty of dirty stuff that you couldnt get away with anywhere else (unless its marvel) so I wouldnt worry too much about that, I just want people to have to think more when using the dirty stuff.
As for Jago I feel damage is the best way to go about nerfing him because I wish to keep his really powerful toolset in tact, if he gets to keep the damage he cant be this all around toolset monster its just not a good fit, honestly its one of the reasons ryu is such an issue in sfv atm characters with that big a toolset and no real weakness really shouldnt have big damage, there must be compensation somewhere.
I read that Infil quote on shadow jago having a flipout and it makes sense not to give him one so Ill just leave him unchanged.
As for mira I changed my OP a little bit ago that the command grab now inflicts a small amount of potential damage as well as giving her life instead of that potential damage being half of what she gains in life from the move since that might lead to easy 1 chance break level 4 cashouts. I just think her command grab move as is just isnt worth the risk reward in neutral unless its the anti air version, the move is just too risky for self killing character imo, which is why I added the little potential damage chunk. Mira in a normal fighting game would probably be very powerful but with the way that breakers work in KI Id say that they are too easy to do for her to be consistent enough to be high tier just from what ive seen with her. I could be wrong about her but I really think she will remain mid tier at best even with the higher tier characters being nerfed.
Ok, gonna take another approach:
You make a change because something doesn’t work well, or works too well. Given that, what problems do you see with:
And how your suggested changes would help them?
unfortunately thats the reality u said there . its a pitty but ok
Not to say that Mira couldn’t use some adjustments, but remember at the end of S2 when ARIA came out and everyone said she sucked and was competitively unviable? Now she’s considered A-tier by many.
The thought that Mira’s command grab is “too risky” means I don’t think you’ve really played around with the mechanics of the move. It has roughly the same recovery as a normal throw, which means ticking with a normal into it is pretty much entirely safe from jumps, and it causes a lifeswing of 28% in Mira’s favor. Not to mention she has anti-air and unjumpable-with-huge-range variants.
It might be the best command grab in the game outside of Raam’s shadow grab, full stop. I’m not even sure Mira players understand just how good this move is. The regular version is unreactable and you basically have to hold up or mash backdash to have any hope of just escaping it, let alone punishing it, and then Mira gets to go to town on you for trying to do that. And every time she gets it, she gets 2.5 heavy trephines in neutral which put her at +2 from half screen away, or 2.5 heavy reaping recaptures + mixups, or 2.5 mist reversals.
I agree with that. That’s something a tool bag looser would do. “I like playing Jago, but it hate Riptor so much can someone just take all her move sets away?”
“No Steve-o (jackass)”
Absolutely not! What is thoughtless risk less pressure exactly? Omen has enough trouble keeping up with damage outputs and he is easy to break. This small advantage of knocking his opponent out of a combo keeps him safe to balance out the damage outputs. Other wise his is dead in 4 combos compared to is 8 combos it takes to defeat his opponents.
the orbs staying in play are no different than gargos minions, Orchids cats, Sadiras webs, Kanras swarms, glacius hail, riptor flame carpet, ect…
going to speak on the characters I play first.
Aganos doesn’t need anything atm tbh. And giving him an overhead that reached that far would make him an absolute nightmare.
Omen it’s tough to balance him. Making his shadow rashakuken disappear wouldn’t really do much since if you used it right you’re stuck anyway. And most better omen players know the timing on the frame trap for that now.so that change wouldn’t really do much. My suggestion for omen is to have his normals do more push back so it limits the amount of frame traps he’s getting.
Riptor’s tailflip already got nerfed. So it’s not really unreactable. Riptor is another character who needs no changes outside the bugs on her damage ender.
Raam. The issues with his kryll rush is that it doesn’t function like a command grab. He can be best with normal throws and characters like glacius can knock him out of it even after he gets a hold of them.
Gargos. The only thing he needs is the hard knockdown on his damage ender removed. Characters shouldn’t get set ups off a damage ender. Other than that Gargos is pretty much fine. Minion management is not easy at all. Such as we saw when jackal struggled pretty hard against Dayton even with minions out. Ever since the bugs with his minions and portal punches gone Gargos is effectively among the hardest characters to use. No need to weaken his strongest tool.
While I get what people are saying about not trying to nerf characters they don’t play, the idea that only the players of a character can (or should) offer meaningful feedback is silly. I didn’t need to play Eyedol to know that he is strong or why, and I don’t need to play Thunder to know that the potency of his sammamish is throwing his neutral and knockdown defense out of whack. I don’t have to play him to know that light sammamish invulnerability is giving him access to meter that he otherwise wouldn’t have, and that his options for how to use that meter are strong and cover a lot of bases. You can be well-enough informed to offer valid points of observation and criticism on characters you don’t play, and people do it all the time. Infil doesn’t regularly play KI, but I doubt very many people would try to argue that he’s automatically off-base to offer his thoughts on where various characters are strong or weak and why.
Regarding Raam’s kryll rush, I keep seeing people talking about it like it’s supposed to be a standard command grab. It isn’t. It’s most analogous to possession, another take on a running bear grab, and largely shares the same vulnerabilities that move does. You can be punched or thrown out of possession too. Hisako’s cancels change the balance on how to best respond to possession, but the base move is very similar to Raam’s kryll rush minus armor.
Now into other characters.
Nerfing Jago’s damage isn’t a bad thing. But not to that level. Truth be told Jago’s meter gain is a bigger pain with him than his damage.
Wulf is not fine. He got easier to break this season on top of the damage nerf and some characters got better zoning options that make keeping him out even easier.the dive slash was suppose to help him but the likes of omen or fulgore just laugh at that move. This is on top of wulf being easy to abuse due to not having a reversal without meter. So this means someone like gargos per say can zone or pressure wulf as he sees fit and wulf is stuck holding it.
Spinal could use some buffs. But not going back to his s2 state.
If fulgore is getting max pips faster than he’s more dangerous than before and wouldn’t even have to use cancels that much. Not the best idea here. All fulgore needs is to be a bit more negative on a couple moves. Or I think @CrazyLCD said this make his blade charge hit twice.
Sadira just make her juggles more useful. Other juggle heavy characters get more off of shorter juggles that aren’t as easy to break.
Tj is fine. Fix the bugs that he has first.
Maya at this point is also fine. Play diamond and you’ll see how good dagger assault can be.
Cinder needs 0 nerfs atm. His burnouts are fine and they only last long off a lvl4. Which he doesnt get easily and he doesn’t really open characters up easily either.
Kim wu. Now part of this I agree with. I’ve said for a long time that Kim should be able to use her dragons for more than a forward dash. After all raam and Jago can dash cancel forward or backwards without a resource so if kim only gets it off a resource then she should be able to. Getting a hard knock down off of anything from her parry is a no no. Dragon kicks are a read based move. So those don’t need much outside of a change on how the hit boxes work since they’re a bit weird. And yes her shadow counter should be looked at.
Mira…just no. The games highest damaging character doesn’t need that. Especially after a move which gives her the excuse to go ham on you again. She’s a glass cannon. She’s suppose to die easy due to her insane toolset.
No dude, you don’t understand. If it does damage then it’s a dirty nasty command grab that always hits and is really good, if it recovers life or delivers its payoff in some other way that translates to damage reasonably well then it’s a risky move that gets stuffed out by everything and is really bad.
While that may be true I’ve usually not been able to grab hisako out of possession on reaction. Nor when fighting hisako have I been able to knock her out of the animations once the move hits. Glacius hail will knock Raam out of kryll rush even if it hits. That’s the biggest issue with it.
I cannot speak for anyone other than myself.
That said, I mostly agree with your comparison of Kryll Rush to Possession - except for what I think is truly the issue at hand. The problem isn’t being hit before the move has actually engaged, it is that he can be hit out of the canned animation upon success, very much unlike Possession, or any other grab for that matter. He does not have “canned animation invincibility” so things like Rasha or Minions can knock him out of a successful Rush. So far as I know, this is not true of Possession, or Prophet’s Bane, or Annihilation, or COTE, so on and so forth.
EDIT: I see @LetalisVenator beat me it to it. Good lookin’ out.
EDIT2: @STORM179 I don’t mean to be pompous xss, but we could compile a list of characters capable of disengaging KR on success, and it would be downright obnoxious. The issue is that RAAM has enough trouble getting in against dedicated zoning, and his forward-moving-beats-projectiles move doesn’t beat delayed projectiles upon success.
Omen: Rasha, EX Orda
I’m sure I’ve skipped some of the more niche instances, but these are off the top of my head stuff that KR should punish but gets beat for the trouble. I’d say it and Possession are actually pretty incomparable.