Faster walk speed than Jago; retains Jago’s best normal pokes: MP, crMK, HP; picks up push kick (fwd+HK) which is a solid poke that dash-cancels into the mixups I listed in my previous post. Granted, Shago’s overhead command normal has less range on it, he loses double roundhouse so he can’t put himself at +3 from two character-lengths away, and he loses far and away Jago’s best poke: medium wind kick. Shago’s slide should make up for that somewhat: not as stably oppressive as wind kick – being unsafe skews the risk-reward back towards even and means you should throw it out less often – but it forces a pre-emptive crouch block, which anchors opponents in place in a way that wind kick doesn’t.
Anyway, I wouldn’t argue that Shago has better footsies than Jago. The tendency in KI is for dominant midrange specials like wind kick to drown out a lot of the walking back and forth vying for position, normal-driven poking/whiff-punishing, etc, that you’d find in something like a Street Fighter, which makes grounded normals more something you press while you’re already in position and makes dash-based repositioning pretty important.
You admit you’re new, and you’ve been given a bunch of advice (and at least one link to more!) for how to shore up Shago’s gameplan in this thread already, including advice directing you to tools that you think Shago doesn’t have. It seems premature to claim that Shago isn’t a competitive character before trying to incorporate some of this advice into your gameplan.
Or, maybe the strategic lines which make Shago strong aren’t your cup of tea. That’s fine, but it probably means you’re not going to like the character in the long run. Maybe pick someone with a lot of good frames, like Jago or Wulf or Thunder or Fulgore or Riptor or…
Ive considered switching mains and joining the jago army.
Yes i know im not that good but pointing out something ive already explained adds less to the discussion than just saying, hey hes actually like this, like the first chunk of your post. Its kinda condescending tbh.
A lot of my views come from watching rico suave and whatever is on youtube that isnt over a year old. The vast majority if shagos ive seen usually get beaten up the first round consistently.
He does not need buffs. He and Omen both whoop my a** all day everyday and I know that’s my fault because I am not that great but let’s not make the grind that much harder
lol, I remember feeling misgivings about joining the Jago army as well. I do get the impression that Jagos who actually put the work in are a whole lot less common, though.
If all you took from that paragraph was a sleight against your inexperience, then you’ve missed the point.
I think for Shago to be the mixup character that hes supposed to be, he should have access to all the extended base mechanics of the game. Hes already got a stagger and recapture, he should get a flipout as well.
Without giving an opinion one way or the other, I think if Shago could flipout into Raging Demon, these forums would crash every other day in ensuing the salt-splosion.
His demon has too much startup lag. He either can get smacked or he’ll glide right pass them.
I just think that he should be a character that has all the basic tools at least regarding how I interpret his design philosophy. Hell I’ll even take Surge flipout.
Shago is a high risk, high reward character. Sure, he’s also a “kitchen sink” character (someone who has basically everything) but even the other kitchen sink characters don’t have every tool. Each of them has their own advantages and disadvantages.
For example, we have 3 basic Shoto characters that classify as characters that can do nearly everything but have more specific tools for their jobs. All of these characters have an invincible DP, Fireballs, and a move that takes them close to full screen to get in. They’ve all got normals that work for CQC pressure, and their fireballs generally keep things neutral between them and their opponents if they’re used at closer range. Jago has an enterage of safe moves and access to flipout, at the cost of a really straightforward jack of all trades playstyle that can become predictable. Fullgore has pip canceling, teleportation, and a stagger, at the cost of his meter gain and some more unsafe moves. Shadow Jago has nearly full screen high low mixups, awesome cross-up potential, and a fully invincible dash that can be canceled into some of his best tools (including ANOTHER DP that can cross-up, his dive kick that can also cross-up, and a nearly unreactable throw which leads to juggles), as well as a free 50% punish with instinct. As a cost, he’s really unsafe and has to make gambles more often.
And if you’re getting hit out of Annihilation, you’re using it wrong. Don’t just throw it out, wait for your opponent to do something stupid/unsafe. Shadow Jago is a character that can make near instant punishes when the opponent messes up from wherever he is on the screen.
A patient Shago is actually, IMO, a much more dangerous creature than an aggressive one. Sure, he has more options for getting in and doing crazy shite than other shoto characters (unless you get really good with Fulgore’s teleport vortex) and he can ruin a zoner’s business in really short order if you use him right, but he can also outzone a lot of characters and bait out risky things like nobody’s business.
I can wholeheartedly vouch for this. I can’t even begin to tell you how many Shago’s I dodge and can punish because they like to use annihilation immediately after activating instinct; it’s the more patient ones that will use it after they block my golem’s ruin or natural disaster where I want to tear up as I say goodbye to nearly 40% of my own health…
Shago with a flipout would be way, way, way too strong.
The reason his grounded mixups are allowed to be this dirty is because a lot of important ones cause a launch, and he needs meter to cash them out, which he conveniently also needs to keep his best mixup tools safe-ish. The idea is that it’s supposed to be a constant decision making process for him which thing he prefers, either safety on mixups or damage cashouts.
If you give him the ability to surprise reset you at any time during his juggles, then you’ve a) made him much harder to break and b) done the Thunder thing to him, where he will now have a ton of meter to use for tons and tons of surge moves in neutral, or whatever else he wants, because he doesn’t have to commit to shadow cashouts to make his offense potent. Right now, if you get launched from Shago and he doesn’t have bar, you know you’re not in for too much damage and you aren’t about to get hit by the 5-way mixup, but with a flipout that will never be the case.
It’s not just about “let’s give him a flipout because that’s a mixup tool and Shago is a mixup character”, it’s about the overall tone and gameplan they want him to implement, and that does not (and cannot) involve flipout.
