Here is my overall balance suggestions for each character. Come give your wanted balance changes for each character as well

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61

Well yeah, Hisako is invincible once possession lands, so a Glacius hail isn’t going to interrupt the move. As a general matter though, there aren’t that many projectiles that “hang around” in a way that would reliably mess up Raam’s kryll rush. Of those that exist, only Glacius and Gargos are likely to even be trying to zone Raam in the first place. An argument can certainly be made that perhaps it should be projectile invincible throughout, but this isn’t an all-cast issue.

And while I wouldn’t recommend trying to grab Hisako out of possession as a rule, the characters with far grab ranges (Glacius, Aganos, Thunder on command grabs), do it enough that I’m not really even surprised by it anymore. There’s a reason people very rarely use the move outside near point-blank range, and why they almost never use the medium and heavy variants. It’s easier than you might think to just punch her in the face if she’s not already right on top of you when she does possession.

62

omen and kan ra can do it as can orchid and rash due to their instincts. Granted he doesn’t need it for them. Aria can also do it though not as easily. The difference between possesion and kryll rush is that kryll rush is kind of suppose to used at a distance. Its suppose to punish someone for being stupid. Normally glacius throwing out raw hails at a distance where he won’t have time to jump back liquidize etc normally isn’t a good idea. Omen shooting 3 fireballs too close isn’t a good idea for some mus. But it doesn’t matter since even if raam reads them right he gets punished anyway lol

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63

With thunder I think he is one of the best characters in the game right now and for a character with such a strong oki and pretty solid neutral I dont think he should have such a good wake up tool like he has with light DP and I dont think that thunder player should have a chance to mixup and opponent if they opponent reads his dp with a block, that sammamish stuff has got to go unless its on hit, not to mention while he is in instinct he can cancel his sammamich into his dash which is ridiculous, the character should not be able to use DP so recklessly. To make his Lp dp have utility though I would have it still be hit invincible so if you make the right read you can get out of a mixup situation but it along with all his other dp’s (minus shadow) can be thrown during startup. I removed flipout from him because I think flipout is a mechanic that should be sparingly given to characters than may need it or it fits their overall design, as is I think thunder’s oki game is fantastic without the lk flipout, he really never needed that addition where as I think other more risk prone offensive characters deserve it more.

When it comes to fulgore I think he is clearly the best in the game and has been since season 2, the ability to cancel specials into specials for such a small cost while having left/right, high/low mixups and fireball/dp traps is incredible I can say without a doubt that fulgore really doesnt have a weakness, his neutral is great, his mixups are great, his wakeup is great, damage is solid and he can barrage the opponent with multiple mixups in a row thanks to his pip cancels so I basically have made it to where if he wants to have really good mixups from full screen/upclose or neutral traps then its going to cost more and he is going to have as many times that he can cancel specials into specials. This will cause fulgore players to be extremely careful about their decision making when it comes to his powerful mixups since he doesnt get to use them so often, even with this nerf Id guarantee he would still be top 10 in the game since now he gets devastation beam/movement buff more often which will allow him to control the neutral game even better, players will just have to be more honest now with the character instead of being able to throw out full screen mixups all willy nilly.

My change to Cinder is minor imo, I think right now he is a strong character but I find that burnouts allow cinder to control the neutral for a bit too long right now, (you can feel the weight shift in the neutral to cinders favor almost every time it happens instantly) I still think he should have this powerful tool but I feel it could use a little shortening.

Gargos right now focus’s too much on minion play in his gameplan right now imo and I think his minion game play is super linear atm and doesnt require a ton of thought or planning, my changes to the character would be to make gargos less dependant on minions and make his minion play less linear than it is right now and as compensation for making gargos slightly less reliant on his strongest ability I would be giving him a defensive buff by making his teleport dp hit on the way up giving Gargos a defensive option now that doesnt make him insanely hard to pressure but gives him another option while he is down on the ground.

@Infilament Those are some sound points about mira’s command grab, I had no clue the recovery frames where similar to that of a normal throw, if thats the case then the move may not be as risky as I once thought. So I will revert that change and leave Mira unchanged for now.

@FallofSeraphs76 Gargos has extremely weak footsies and defense in general so he needs minions to be that strong also my suggestions toward changing that character make minions not as overtly present in his gameplan is it once was. Orchid only gets cats in instinct and instincts tend to be very powerful. Sadira needs those webs to be competitive atm not to mention its instinct only. Kanra doesnt really get free or insane pressure from swarms since they move so slow and have plenty of recovery. Glacius doesnt have great movement and is focused on zoning not pressure, not to mention hail has plenty of startup and requires you to hold a button if you want to make it mixup friendly. Riptor’s flame carpet can only be applied on a knocked down foe and she actually needs the carpet, not to mention you can jump out of it.

Omen can throw fireballs from fullscreen get a good randomized pattern and get in or pressure with shadow fireballs pretty freely and mindlessly atm thanks to them not disappearing if omen is hit, I see no reason as to why omen players should be allowed to be really reckless and be safe because they have some fireballs backing him up, Id rather have omens think about their pressure/spacing and what it means if they get hit while trying to apply it, he never needed this buff in S3 and it definitely doesnt promote thought provoking gameplay, removing it also wont make him still not a very good character.

@LetalisVenator I know agaons is pretty solid at the moment but as a person who uses Aganos as his secondary and hates when useless moves exist in the game I think that his 3-4 chuck form should be a bit more viable (because right now you are putting yourself at more of a disadvantage by staying in that form than advantage) the small speed increase should make Aganos players actually want to use chunks in this manner more often. As for his forward HK buff I think as it you might as well delete it since its virtually useless, by making it an overhead you at least give it some form of utility in the since you can fake out an opponent with it by switching it up with down HK but lets be honest 80% you should be blocking high when fighting aganos (it really shouldnt catch a foe often at all) not to mention its risky as all get out still since its punishable on block.

The omen change make omen players have to simply be more honest with the character, good players would be able to make the pressure happen regardless with this change, you just cant be reckless about it anymore since there is no longer a fireball safety blanket behind you.

My riptor change was a buff, it makes her tail flip slightly less react-able similar to S2

Since Raam is my main (and I feel comfortable with most things he currently has) all I really want when it comes to his Running Grab is utility, its a move that if you hit a foe your opponent should really be punished for and right now its only usable version is the LK version, I also like the fact that the shadow version now improves raams wakeup game by giving him a throw invulnerable move. As for the whole getting hit out of it thing I understand your frustration, after reading all the characters that can cause this to happen I decided to fix it to act like a regular command throw upon hitting the opponent.

My goal with Gargos is to make a bit less polarizing by making his minion game less linear and he defensive game slighty better as compensation as I honestly think alot of what his gameplan is a bit autopiloty.

@LetalisVenator Jago: I agree his meter gain is a bit of an issue as well, I wouldnt mind if he got a damage and meter nerf but had more damage output than shago.

Wulf: I disagree about wulf, his footsies and frametraps are great and his dive slash is super useful so Id say he is still super viable especially after my rebalancing but if his normal dp is truly not invincible (I always thought it was) that definitely should be changed to being invincible as I think his character design needs to have a strong wakeup option. Edit: Just looked it up, wow I was scared of this characters wakeup for nothing lol, I added invincibility to all of his eclipses since it complements the character design well imo.

Spinal: I really miss some of his S2 mechanics and think he needs a small buff, its part of what made Spinal interesting, I see no harm in giving him back his old shadow meter curses, the instinct curses were really the only ones that needed a big rework.

Fulgore: I personally dont think he would be more dangerous at all but if it turned out to be the case one could always remove the movement speed buff, I think as is Fulgore is kind of a degenerate design and is pretty toxic for the game his toolkit is waaay too strong right now and making a large portion of his pip canceling game more difficult and scarce to implement is imo the key to remedying his overpowered design.

Sadira: I could see that being the case, she really should have the best juggles in the game since its what she was always known for.

TJ: I just assume bugs will be fixed

Maya: I havent played Pink but Ive seen her play a ton and from what Ive seen she and most mayas use the unblockable 90% of the time over saving up for dagger assault.

Cinder: If I were to nerf burnout’s time it would be the lvl 3 and lvl 4 enders by about a second or two.

Kim: Yeah the Backdash would really open her game up and give dragons alot more utility. As for the Parry buff Its only physical attacks that cause her parry to cause a hard knockdown and giver her a dragon (projectiles simply yield 1 dragon for her) I think if she reads you are going to hit her with a physical attack with parry then you should pay for it.

Mira: After reading what infil said about her grab I agree since its apparent not that risky at all like most command grabs.

64

I STILL have trouble trying to read and break his many-kicks special-move linker… :frowning:

65

Pay attention to the intensity of the hitsparks. Once you are familiar with how intense L is, the others should just sort of intuitively make sense, and you’ll be able to recognize and reliably break them in no time.

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66

I always try to pay attention to the speed of the kicks, but it seems like they change to me… SIGH

67

Focus on your character in this scenario. Since Aganos is so big, its easier to see the strength of multihits like this looking at yourself

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68

That, I can’t really attest to. In the “heat of the moment”, speed differentiation on a flurry like that can boggle the mind to try and interpret, but the hitsparks are different for sure. Think of L as like a sparkler, and they increase in intensity from there (larger particle coverage, brighter). That’s how I break’em, anyway.

While I don’t often have the presence of mind to succeed with the ‘watch your own hit reel’ method, @Dayv0 has solid advice if that method works for you.

Not trying to down on you in any way, just offering friendly advice.

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69

Im speaking more of how easy his auto doubles are to read…not his linkers. Linkers can be tough, but why break his linkers when his auto doubles are so easy to read? his around the wold dis easy to read. The only time you should be trying to break linkers is if the Omen is attempting many manuals or consistently repeating heavy or light linker.

70

this scenario does not work as well as you think it does. Most characters can trade right through the fireballs and reset the momentum. Its definitely not as good as minions.

And your idea of “thought provoking game play” is way wrong. And pretty insulting to me as an Omen main that just took 2nd place at the Midsouth championships might I add…with Omen. Many times I tried to cover myself and it didnt work more than it did. Its takes a lot of thought to decide to spend the meter or not when the meter could also be an escape or an extra 15% to your damage output.

**** Also… you are talking as if the regular orbs should disappear. Only the shadow orbs used to disappear on hit. Now they dont. Shadow orbs are straight shot homing missiles. they do not cover the screen in random patterns. You are combing the "randomness of the regular orbs into the shadow conversation. This is incorrect.

3 Likes
71

Oh no minions are better defense than the fireballs but thats besides the point, gargos needs a tool like that where omen does not, Id rather omen players have to play cautiously using fireballs to get in than getting in regardless because even if your opponent hits omen it doesnt matter the pressure is coming thanks to the fireballs.

Im not saying you dont have to think as an omen player, Im saying one aspect of omens gameplay doesnt take alot of caution to be successful. Im not trying to insult you, Im just trying to take away what things that make players think less when they dont have too.

72

See my edit. You cant talk as if shadow orbs are in random patterns. they are not. Shadow is straight homing missle. You cant shoot them out, see a random pattern and then react to it as so.

73

A set up that requires meter in order to punish you? I’m iffy on this.

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74

Shadow fireballs arent random I was talking about the random fireballs in neutral, but I think if you hit omen you shouldnt have to worry about his fireballs hitting you, omen should have to approach with caution.

@DulXboxOne Meter isnt that hard to build in KI, I really dont think omen needs guaranteed safety from his shadow fireballs simply because he spent a bar.

75

You know a handful of characters can take a Rasha to the face and STILL not drop their combo, right? And they do next to no damage, like everything else Omen does.

And, I’d seriously consider giving the “thoughtless” crap a rest. All you’re accomplishing is insulting people baselessly, with very little thought yourself. If you’re calling Omen or Gargos assisted pressure thoughtless, you clearly have very little (if any) meaningful experience with these characters.

Shucks, I don’t even play most of them and I’ve been sympathetically offended throughout the reading of each of your posts.

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76

Hmm, didn’t even know there were sparks. I’ll look for those…

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77

Nothing is completely thoughtless in fighting games but there are actions that are definitely linear in their train of thought, I just dont like the fact omen really doesnt have to be cautious when applying pressure while shadow fireballs are out, this buff was always an unnecessary buff while his the other stuff he received in S3 added to his design instead of giving him something that makes omen play in a more linear fashion.

I play gargos a bit and even though his minion play isnt completely thoughtless it is very linear/polarizing and makes alot of his core gameplay one dimensional which why I would like to have his minions slightly redesigned so the gargos player must be safer with his minions and think about how he should use them differently. And he gets a defensive buff to compensate.

78

I can get behind this. This will be a problem especially when he locked out your meter.

79

Could use some specifics. Like frame adjustment, hitbox adjustment. That kind of thing. this “ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I want it nerfed by a little bit.” Well what’s a little bit? 1%? 10%? 50%? Or things like “Well the damage should be lowered by a little bit or increased by a little bit.” <because that don’t work.

80

Why is that? That seems like it might hurt him a lot though. Idk. Explain?