Gargos is annoying to fight


No argument from me. I forgot about INSX EX.DP, but I think they leaned a little too much on the ‘cakewalk’ side in terms of fixing it - do the meteors even come out on block anymore? It’s no Cinder-ized Flashkick, that’s fo’ sho’.

But they didn’t stop there. That kit-thresher was all diesel and hellfire, and no mere page-length would soften it’s deranged yowling that night as it razed those blossoming Cyclopean fields…

To quote one of history’s most noble and courageous of heroes:


Same time they do on hit.


Peacock is love, Peacock is life~

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…but they don’t when you hit the punish, which is the point I was trying to illustrate.

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And that’s where I go. :slight_smile: I’d be completely lost without the advice on this board where it pertains to this matchup and honestly Sadira in general. I mean, I was okay with her before, but I’ve learned a lot from some great people on here!

Well yeah, I meant laughable as in it’s a bad suggestion. Dangerous is another good adjective to use though, and for the reasons you suggested. I was more or less just spitballing ideas for fun.

I definitely believe in improving and collaborating as well. Truth be told, I didn’t start throwing out move suggestions as a replacement for this. I’d mainly just like to see Sadira get another special move on the ground. Doesn’t have to be super powerful or safe on block or whatever, just something that maybe gives her a little more variety on the ground, and if it helps with this one bad matchup, so much the better.

But to be clear, that’s not me saying “I don’t want to learn this matchup” or even “I need help from the devs for this matchup.” I just like seeing characters get more to do, especially when it comes to the original six characters in this game.

No, there’s no problem with the original six having less moves than characters like Kan Ra, Cinder or Gargos. Some people love the elegance or simplicity or whatever you want to refer to their movelist as in this regard. I personally like more moves, more options, more ideas going in to rounding out a character’s movelist. I think Jago’s more fun with a charge fireball and that Glacius is more fun with Liquidize and the way they changed his instinct.

So yeah, if they can keep adding a little bit here and there without cluttering up their move lists too much or making them too complicated or unbalanced, then yeah… I’m in favor of that, even if it means that the game doesn’t sit, unchanging, for several months at a time.

I’m guessing we have a fundamental disagreement on this issue and that’s obviously fine. I don’t begrudge you for having the opinion you have one bit. I know that my opinion has some inherent downsides, such as making it harder to learn the game, but I’m okay with that and I see why you wouldn’t be.

Again, I can see why you’d want that. Personally, I like that they change stuff up here and there. I love the pre-season rebalances that they’ve done and I love seeing a character get a new toy or two to play with. If they think that they can improve something, whether it be Fulgore’s instinct or Sadira’s combo trait or whatever, I enjoy seeing them come up with new stuff.

But again, that’s never meant as a substitution for good labbing and conversations with more experienced players and honestly, sometimes a bad matchup is a bad matchup and that’s okay too, even if hard work only makes it a little less of a hair puller. That’s just me though.


Eyedol is also still pretty good, but can be quite stressful to play, mainly due to the stance switching and low damage you have to be quite on the ball and able to maintain control of the match. He still has a very strong neutral game and can dominate many characters this way. Trying to play him like other, more combo heavy characters is inadvisable due to the aforementioned low damage and his relatively limited combo options (only 1 set of doubles and quite slow linkers). Even in instinct I prefer to use short level 1 or 2 combos into launcher ender, as it does a decent chunk of damage, allows you to finish with a teleport for an extra control pips and lets you return to your dominating pressure and neutral again quickly. He also got a bit of a buff with the PD changes, particularly in Mage where the big chunk of PD he gets from a throw hangs around long enough to make good use of now, as well as the PD from his short, low damage unbreakables.

This isn’t really about Gargos but it highlights that of the two characters listed as overnerfed the one I have experience with is arguably still very good.

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Some times stance changing saves me lol


I probably should have had a disclaimer stating that I wasn’t so much personally addressing you, Iago407 the Individual, as responding to the spirit of the ideas and sort of screaming into the wind. We’ve had lots of good talk about sort of thing, I know that you actively seek to improve and you tend to spitball ideas for the fun of it - I didn’t mean to jump on your back or attack you in any way. I’ve spotted you a handful of times over in the Sadira subforum gettin’ yo’ learn on.

I’ve said it a bunch, I should probably put it in profile bio so it’s right there if you click my icon, but it bears repeating so my perspective isn’t misunderstood: I skipped S1 with a snort of derision, not knowing any better. S2 Hisako reveal is what got me into the game as a spectator (for timeline purposes), and I only started playing and really digging deep w/ the S3 PC launch.

So far, I have actually been incredibly impressed with the teams attention to their community and their willingness to rework large elements of characters, along with their attention to balance. I don’t begrudge them a majority of their balance work this past season, particularly in terms of addressing bugs and egregious balance errors (I like that they adjusted Eyedol’s aforementioned trash, I disagree with how they adjusted them), and I actually really like what and why they overhauled Sadira and Fulgore - just the when.

My issue isn’t even so much with the act(s) of rebalancing so much as the scrub mentality it has engendered in so much of the playerbase - this refusal to lab and study and innovate and collaborate because if we just bxtch on Twitter and Facebook enough they’ll make it easy next month anyway.

@MBABanemobius He’s still good, sure. This is KI, every character is good to an extent. I still think he was overnerfed by a significant margin, and as a result is not just less powerful, but (perhaps more importantly) far less interesting. I dunno, maybe I need to revisit him. I haven’t touched him in a good minute, and since the PD changes we are playing a new game. You tend to have valuable input, so I’ll keep it mind.

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I don’t really see how Eyedol is less interesting, myself. I think he’s actually very strong (maybe in top 5 or just outside of it). He has tons and tons to discover. I still don’t see people using overhead or heavy shoulder -> run cancel to be +10 on block from 3/4 screen away.

Aside from jump HP and some instinct changes (mandatory changes to have a stable game), what did they nerf about him that makes him “less interesting”? They made Warrior overhead slightly more negative (but still safe), but it’s still a great move especially when backed up by run cancel. I guess they made Mage runaway with jump HP a little worse, but he still dominates from mid range or farther, except he struggles with antiair (but he always did). The one thing that was maybe overnerfed is back+MP being special cancelable in Mage, since that’s fun to cancel into special moves, but I can’t really think of anything else you could add to the list here.


tbh I wish Eyedol’s jump cancels weren’t so sensitive. Many times have I got them instead of ultras.


people still posting here?

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Okay, call me out on my hyperbole and make me read it out loud so the whole class can hear it, why don’t’cha… :cold_sweat:
I miss Mage j.MP & j.HP and still don’t understand why Warrior j.HP needed an animation change. I respect the adjustment to it’s properties (particularly the crossup and stupid blockstun) but I can’t swing it from a nj anymore, in fact it’s practically been relegated to a juggle tool. The slowdown to his hella slow Warrior OH was unnecessary, but whatever, it’s good for all sorts of stuff w/ a pip. You do have to be sleeping to get hit by it as an OH though, it’s like 28f startup or something. Might as well not be an OH at that point. I think Mage b.MP is considerably less interesting as a movement-check than it was as a mixup initiator cuz halfscreen mixups are interesting and footsies are BORING DAD!!!

So yeah, it seems like you understood precisely how Eyedol is less interesting. Maybe we put differing levels of importance on the fun factor, and I was certainly exaggerating when I said “less interesting” because you’re right - he’s young and there’s still a LOT of discovery to be done - but that was true when they nerfed the everloving shxt out of all that fun stuff too… oh well…

I just mostly miss the poofy-poofs.


His BROKEN stuff was deleted, and some adjusted.

I maybe would touch his battery ender as mage, and b+mp was funny cancelable, but I can live with that IF the move would hit a bit lower so many characters can’t duck it, but overall, Eyedol is fine.

Even more, he is really great. Probably top 8, and IMO very interesting to both play with and against[quote=“Infilament, post:351, topic:10812”]
I don’t really see how Eyedol is less interesting, myself. I think he’s actually very strong (maybe in top 5 or just outside of it). He has tons and tons to discover. I still don’t see people using overhead or heavy shoulder -> run cancel to be +10 on block from 3/4 screen away.

This guy knows what he is talking about!


I can see your point of view. I think overhead’s speed maaaaybe could have survived at its original speed (or only 1 or 2 frames slower instead of 6), but also maybe it would have proven pretty silly after a while. I agree that warrior jump HP is actually not a very good button at all anymore (but that’s okay, he has warrior jump HK). In fact I don’t even talk a single time about jump HP in my guide, I would advise people simply to never use it outside of juggles.

He did survive with a bunch of pretty broken silly tools though. Mage stomp strike is ridiculous. Warrior command grab range is a bit out of control. And with various Mage/Warrior buttons I still think he can control the neutral in ways that piss off the opponent pretty good.


If you are suggesting that the poof-away of j.HP & j.MP, and the cancellability of b.MP was BROKEN, we will have to agree to disagree friend. Those things were deleted, gone forever with no adjustment.[quote=“Dayv0, post:355, topic:10812”]
maybe would touch his battery ender as mage

What Battery Ender? kappa

I can see what you’re saying about OH, 22f is about “normal” speed for an OH, but that’s a dumb range to think about blocking an OH, so could probably be a bit tedious after a while (especially considering run-cancel) - 28f is plenty of time to not just react, but to (with a little practice) react outside of one’s habits, like with a backdash instead of a block to avoid the blockstun that makes the run-cancel dangerous. Maybe it’s not too slow. I hope Eyedol’s start run-cancelling their OHs.

The bit of Eyedol I did play, my Warrior was largely centered on the post-grab mixup, and I remember being able to land just the n.3P from kinda silly ranges. I didn’t even know about how + Stomp was until after I had set him aside, and I haven’t played with him since reading about it so I sorta forgot Stomp pressure was even a thing.

Thanks Infil, Dayv0 and Banemobius for making me see how damned silly I’ve been, and providing me the insight which is encouragement to return to a character I really enjoyed. You boys all thinkin’ with your heads and makin’ with the rational discussion, I’m so proud of you! :grin:

@Iago407 I think I may be taking my recent experiences from elsewhere in the community (and the overall FGC) and projecting them here a bit. My bad.

This is the place I enjoy in the internet’s corner of the FGC, I shouldn’t be an asshat here. I should be an asshat on SOMEONE ELSE’S HEAD!



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Oh no problem at all man! I didn’t take the least bit of offense to anything you said, and I figured that you were more going against the general sentiment than directing any sort of hostility at me. It’s all good. :slight_smile:

Well, the communication has it’s upsides and downsides, no question. I think it’s great that we can throw ideas out there and the developers will likely see them and perhaps evaluate them on their merits. If they see something worth looking in to, I’d like to think that they give it due diligence and perhaps make a change every so often. But for me, if they disagree, or an idea dies in front of the first eyes that see it, that’s okay too.

I’ve been wanting Sabrewulf to get some more fun and excitement in his move set since season one, but that doesn’t seem like it’ll happen. I still bring it up here and there, but I don’t think I’ve ever been angry or belligerent about it. Maybe a little negative about his instinct mechanic, but I’ve never been enraged by it by any stretch of the imagination.

Perhaps that more direct contact might foster a scrub mentality in some people. But I think it goes beyond their willingness to listen, beyond this game and in to the heart of the gamer mentality itself.

Granted, this is entirely anecdotal, so take it for what you will, but ever since the magical interwebz brought us all closer together, more and more people seemingly see themselves as collaborators based on their expertise.

Or rather, those that feel so entitled by their ability to have any sort of public forum whatsoever (be it a place like ultracombo or twitter or a twitch channel etc) that they think it’s okay to berate and harass developers in some vain attempt to bring them over to their way of thinking. This sort of strange, off-putting, borderline pathological need to pout and whine and pontificate and harass being somehow justified by an “if I can just make them see what I see, they’ll understand” mentality.

There’s not a whole lot in the way of shame anymore because to some people, it’s all worth it, as they’re doing a public service, or it’s acceptable because they’re in the heat of an argument or in the moment or whatever, so who cares if they’re essentially holding their breath until they turn blue in the face.

From what I see around here, at least, more are willing to learn than complain. But sometimes observations are logical and sometimes the feedback loop can be helpful, even if there are multiple downsides. I just hope the devs don’t one day see it as more of burden than anything else and clam up. I give them credit. After some of the stuff I’ve seen, I probably would have. Hell, I don’t even play people online because of it lol.

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I think a big part of this was just that the planned nerfs they had to its hitbox meant it would have been egregiously incongruent with where the club was actually going, and unlike in SFV development, that inconsistency mattered to them. I don’t think it’s too terrible though - Eyedol still has good air buttons with which to harass grounded opponents, and there’s something to be said that not all jumping heavies have to be godlike.

On the Eyedol overhead piece, I’m actually one of those people who was very much in favor of the nerf to it. The move has crazy range, and because of Eyedol’s run and command grab options I find I still get tagged by it with some regularity. The character is a live threat from almost half a screen away anyway; I don’t think he needs an overhead bordering on unreactability to make him any more threatening in footsies. Overall, I personally think the nerfs to the character were more about how absolutely overwhelming his launch kit was than about interesting tools being taken away from him.


I’m not kidding when I think it might be the best close-range special move in the entire game.


I legit think it is. That sucker is crazy plus :joy:

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