Gargos is annoying to fight

#363

Good range :white_check_mark:
Good frame data :white_check_mark:
Great chip damage :white_check_mark:
Leads to combo on hit :white_check_mark:
Can be powered up to get more range and better frame data :white_check_mark:
Different strenghts makes it harder to shadow counter :white_check_mark:

Yeah, it is

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#364

Yeah… I main with Sadira and it’s jsut painful. I can pressure an less experienced Gargos if I can get in early enough and don’t give them chance to catch up. I play Orchid and Jago as second characters but can’t seem to find a way in. I will check out the character forums for more info. Thanks

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#365

Yeah, I can see why they changed j.HP in all the ways they did, especially if it wouldn’t have visually made sense anymore.

And I think I understand the reasoning behind the OH nerf, for pretty much all the reasons stated above.

It’s really more the Mage nerfs that irk me, the poof-aways and lost cancellability. I’m like a broken record now, but yeah, I get it. I really oughtta re-discover this character, cuz after some nice rational points being thrown in my direction, I think I understand where my judgement was hasty or clouded, and I really liked the character in concept, I was just super put-off by the difference between launch-Mage and nerfed-Mage after hoping for a month that they’d bring the two to about each others level.

I was just confused. :disappointed_relieved:

@ManiacalSpore68 I should have just assumed that you main Sadira. Yeah, that’s a brutal match for you. I don’t really have any specific ideas about how to beat him w/ Sadira other than remain grounded until you can knock him down. He will force you out of the air, so don’t make it easy on him.

Do Sadira players even use grounded meaties, though? I would learn how to set up meaty st.HP and meaty sweep, if you don’t already.

It is probably one of two good MU’s for him, though, so don’t begrudge him too sharply!

#366

On the Warrior overhead, it is worth noting that it is now slow enough to stuff on reaction now with DPs and parries, as my friends who play Jago and Kim Wu have each pointed out to me. However one thing worth noting is the start of his taunt has a very similar animation, to the extent where I’ve managed to make both try to counter the overhead leaving me free to punish.

On stomp strike being the best special move, while it is super good, being a projectile means it cannot interact with the priority system and use what would be a high value grounded heavy on another character (or in Warrior). It is also beatable with projectile invulnerable attacks on a character who’s moveset largely consists of projectiles (including both his reversals and his throw invulnerable move) so whilst it’s definitely one of the best I don’t think it is unanimously the best.

Really appreciate the kind words @MDMMORNING , glad to help.

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#367

True, but that’s not necessarily uncommon. Jago’s overhead is also counter reactable offline, and Wulf’s would be as well if he couldn’t also threaten with his other run options. I can react to Raam’s heavy punch offline as well actually.

The DP punishes are more impressive to be sure, but counter/parry reactable moves are pretty prevalent across the cast. Most of what keeps Kim and Sako from countering the world is just the limitations of the moves themselves. If I’m in a space where I only have to look out for one or two moves, it’s pretty easy to parry just about anything that isn’t blindingly fast. I think it’s a part of the MU that the Eyedol player work around those things (which is what you’ve done). Hisako can react to Glay’s instinct puddle punch too; that doesn’t make the move bad, just means Glacius has to play around that fact.

#368

whaaaaaa

#369

It is reactable to a larger extent than all of those moves (even slightly more so than shatter, but only just byet a few frames), however my point was that this isn’t necessarily a terrible thing since it and his taunt share a similar startup, so you can bait out DPs using the taunt if they prove capable of DPing the overhead (both offline and on, as I have fought said friends in both). Also due to the immense range and threat of the overhead around it’s maximum range you can often get a quick running sweep in and they aren’t prepared for the low threat.

Running in with command grab also works well for the same reason (especially if they respect the low option) although I recommend running into the (aforementioned exceptionally large) range of the standing command grab and using that instead, as the forward command grab is a lot slower and actually reactable. I actually generally recommended this for almost all circumstances, and I personally prefer to use the forward command grab only for the extended throw invulnerability on a read (or a screen freeze from switching perhaps).

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#370

The move is great, but it has a fair amount of startup. Hisako’s range is almost as big as Raam’s, so he’s pretty much stuck tossing out his HP at max range unless he wants to eat my HP. He doesn’t have anything else that I have to be worried about at max HP range, so I basically just look for him to start swinging and mash counter.

It’s not 100% and I don’t know that I’d really want to test it offline, but I found it to be pretty reliable at NEC.

#371

Ooookay, that makes more sense. I mean, it’s not the fastest button in the world, but still. I thought you were suggesting that you can see the button’s startup and then decide to press your button, and I was like “Storm is saying he’s a T-1000,”

If you’re effectively applying your yomi in situations that make you look bloody godlike, that’s a little different.

#372

Do you mean HP or his HP stab special? The former comes out on frame 9 with its forward most hitbox (the rest are a bit further back) and is thus actually unreactable whereas the HP stab special comes out on frame 19 and has a distinctive animation and audio cue when it starts so would be much more feasible.

#373

Yeah Raam’s HP is 8 or 9f startup, I really doubt you’re reacting to it. Reacting to heavy stab is much more reasonable.

#374

DP in warrior is a projectile? Or am I misreading this?

#375

In Mage, I was talking about stomp strike.

#376

Ah. Well I don’t think it being a projectile is a super big deal because it’s a block string off many of his important buttons, and if you notice someone trying to mash projectile invincible through the non-block string buttons, it’s IMO pretty risky and it’s strong for Eyedol to force your opponents to have to guess like that.

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#377

Yeah, definitely referring to his HP stab (decimation?). Sako’s st.HP has a bit more range than Raam’s st.HP, so it’s pretty common for them to use heavy stab instead as their footsie “button” of choice. Raw Raam HP’s are a lot less common in that MU than others, since at that range Hisako can poke right back.

So yeah, I’m definitely not a machine reacting to 9 framers or anything :joy:

I think a lot of people would be surprised just how few Hisako counters are outright reactions. Most of the stuff I and other players counter is a lot less “I see x move, use y counter” than “he’s standing at a certain range/doing something, mash counter”. About the only time I’m making conscious counter decisions is when someone freezes the screen. Most of the other times I’m just reacting to “I see motion at a range that denotes attack, mash.” Looking for specific things (Raam stab, Jago overhead) can certainly up that, but that usually means that you’re open to other kinds of pressure.

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#378

That makes a lot of sense, but also doesn’t quite inspire the same fear in the hearts of mortals…

Speaking of which, I am losing my marbles, and I need y’all to clarify something for me and snicker for being a nutter. K. So.

I remember the idea of 2-hit command normals being cancellable on the first hit making an impression on me when I started playing (like cancelling the first hit of Jago’s f.HK, or Omen’s f.HP). Doing some semi-related labwork just now, I realized this is not a thing.

Was this ever a thing? Or do I have birds in the attic?

#379

Lol. Pretty sure that’s never been a thing…you nutter :slight_smile:

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#380

Okay. Good to know. Danke.

Insanity, I can deal with.

Uncertainty…?

#381

lol wow made this thread like a year in may lol people still coming wow thx I think