Why I don't Want Any More Seasons

I honestly believe the seasonal content approach for this game has not yet outlasted its usefulness, nor has this game reached the point where the container overflows. As it stands the game has now reached a point where I think they IG can more freely approach a new season with a little more freedom than in past seasons, as creativity will be less stifled by fan demands and business decisions.

They won’t be having to re-create the lighting for a new season, they won’t have the huge task of creating a pc port (merely upkeeping it in line with the console version for cross-compatible play), and they won’t have to worry about updating characters from previous games to fit into the new one now that the entirety of the original cast is in the new game. Finally, I think the game has reached the point where we don’t actually need any new gameplay mechanics on the system, not because the gameplay can’t handle it, but with the introduction of flipout and stagger this season, heavies ignoring armor, etc., the balance is basically on par to function with most fighting games out there now. SF series has dizzy states, SF4 has the crumple state, and we now have a similar state in the stagger animations. SF has reset style moves, and the flipout mechanic has given us reset style mechanics as well.

So with the system in a great balance where no real new gameplay mechanic for the overall system is necessary, they don’t have to tackle some of the giant obstacles they had to for the previous seasons, the next one can be one they can focus in on a lot more efficiently.

The can can probably survive with one last season under its belt, but I would also say we would be hard pressed to go beyond that. With the presence of the xbox Scorpio looming close by, there should be a push to eventually end the current iteration and begin anew with the new console and take advantage of the ridiculous horsepower it will bring with it. Until then, this KI is not as played out as some would think, so we would be REALLY crazy to try and push it further beyond a season 4. I think the best balance and mix of a fighting game roster can be obtained by having as low a roster count as you can get away with, where ~22 is about a good number, so we aren’t far off into unbalanced territory. When you exceed 30, then you are starting to overencumber the players with a lot of matchup data and extra knowledge that makes playing a little more mentally taxing. I feel like this came back to bite SF4 in the end, as they nearly approached 50 characters by then.

With the scorpio on the distance, but not there yet, we could make due with ONE more season. Though I would say, maybe it would be a good opportunity to get started on a sequel to this title if MS is indeed interested in one, especially if Scorpio dev kits are available, and when it launches, the game we get won’t launch with 6 characters, but can be around at least 16 or so, and have a more rich content experience with maybe a fully voice acted story mode, new villain ideas and concepts, a chance to do new things that the hex engine isn’t fully capable of, and a full graphical upgrade. I do like what KI is now, but if the specs on the new console are truly what MS is hyping, then a sequel should be able to tap into some super visuals and new imagery.

TL:DR We can do with maybe one more season, and that’s it. Otherwise, may be time to start considering the sequel, given the new hardware freedom coming, and that IG will have a better starting point for a sequel that working from scratch. Until then, the game isn’t played out yet, and still has plenty of life to it.

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And after that, i would bet in a remastered version with even better graphics, 4k and hdr than in a sequel. Scorpio will not be for everyone, and folowing MS line of action (everything running on all 3 consoles + pc) A brand new KI just for scorpio horsepower could be a shot in the feet.

Seasons adding content + remastered version would be a must.

At some point you have to consider a sequel. While I know a lot of you disagree with @CrazyLCD on his point of compressing more content on top of one another, and I don’t agree there is some balance issue at hand by this approach, he does have a point that eventually, there will be a moment where too much content is an issue and you can’t close the lid on the play-doh container.

The reason I bring this up is that, the clues point to the scorpio not as an Xbox One + type of deal, but as a new console altogether. Whether the sequel to this game is made on the par with the new console specs or not, that’s another topic of debate in itself, but eventually, or really INEVITABLY, a sequel will have to happen, regardless of being on par with the One or Scorpio. It’s a chance to try new things on a scale that simply adding on to an aging game engine can’t continue to handle forever. It also gives the developers a chance to cut content that overall doesn’t work or fit, and allows for new perspective of possibilities.

I’ll also be blunt about this, I don’t really want the same fate of SF4 to be what this KI is, to become long stagnant, overly complex, weighed down by a huge number of characters that only a handful are played anyway, and in need of overhaul long before the situation is realized. In the game industry, to keep a game going as long as Capcom did like that with SF4 for nearly 6 years is hard, and kind of a gamble at that. I don’t know given the reception SF5 has had they’ll get a repeat of that kind of success or not. The game is approaching it’s three year mark soon, which is a milestone we should all be happy with, but there is only so much adding on you can do.

I’m not sure what your argument is here as you basically just agreed me with me. You’re exactly correct, with more game releases and other activities happening people are not playing/watching the game as much while others just stop playing because they don’t like the game anymore.

Of course I don’t have raw numbers but my conjecture is a pretty good educated assumption. I’ve been around this community long enough to know where people have gone and while I won’t mention in any specific names I could probably list 5 previous seasons top players who stopped playing because of constant bugs which I can completely understand. As a serious competitive player how can anyone take this game serious for any long period of time when their character(s) are constantly being changed and/or have serious bugs. I mean if I was a TJ combo player of would of been furious knowing the damage on my command grab was bugged for 6 months, a critical component to TJ offense. Obviously I know IG isn’t purposely leaving bugs in the game and want the best experience for players but it is what it is and for some can drive people away.

Speaking for myself here, I’m not sure why people continue to assume that providing constructive feedback and stating an opinion is spreading negativity. No one person or any product is perfect and if you have a problem with something it’s better to let your voice be heard than to say nothing at all, hence why you responded to this thread because you want your opinion to be read/heard. Whether you agree with me or not everyone has a right to read/write/respond on these forums and in their own streams.

Now if I went on stream or in these forums bolstering “the game sucks never play it” then sure that’s spreading negativity but I’ve have never done that EVER!

I’m not against adding new content to this game, I’m against continue to do it through a seasonal approach. Like I said you can add more DLC content like characters/stages without marketing it as a brand new season. No more re-balancing the entire game again. [quote=“IronFlame, post:23, topic:15814”]
I’ll also be blunt about this, I don’t really want the same fate of SF4 to be what this KI is, to become long stagnant, overly complex, weighed down by a huge number of characters that only a handful are played anyway, and in need of overhaul long before the situation is realized. In the game industry, to keep a game going as long as Capcom did like that with SF4 for nearly 6 years is hard, and kind of a gamble at that.
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I agree completely. It was almost near impossible for me to get into SF4 near the end because the shear intimidation of how complex the game was. Could you imagine this KI having 50+ characters and having to learn all the character matchups, learn all the animations to break and more as a new player?

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Well, I do NOT agree with you. As for being heard, it’s NOT a good thing if you’re wrong (and for the record, I’m not saying that YOU are - I’m speaking about anyone in general, and in regards to virtually any topic). To make a valid point, one’s stance/opinion must be an informed 1. Otherwise, they’d be spreading misinformation, which IS negative in every sense of the word, even if it was unintentional.

With that said, here are my views:
I never understood why sequels were really a thing when it came to video games. Why put a name to it? I would just like a popular franchise, like KI for example, to come out and release content and updates over time for virtually forever. It doesn’t even have to be in a seasonal format either (yet another name, really) - they can just do it as needed, such as when its popular or when they feel a revival is needed. The game itself will still evolve over time with the times and may at some point be considered something entirely different, in all but name.

So, I say take what works and just improve upon it. When the Scorpion comes out, up its graphics and performance - go ahead, I welcome it! But to just skip ahead and forget about what we already had, like yesterday’s garbage? no, I never liked that…

Of course, this method isn’t entirely feasible financially speaking, since unless there’s new content on offer to sell, they can’t exactly keep turning a profit, and if people don’t buy, it will eventually end. Maybe that’s a good way to determine or gauge the game’s popularity though?

I know I’m in the minority here when I suggest this, but I would not be wholly against a subscription service, if it meant that more content/updates would come more frequently. Even with a small playerbase, it could sustain the game for longer, I think, simply due to the automatic process of it…

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Can’t the decline in stream numbers be attributable to multiple factors though? Maybe more new games are drawing people’s attention away? I mean, KI’s most recent season wrapped up a while ago. I don’t know the habits of stream viewers, but couldn’t this just be regular attrition? Did stream numbers dip after season 2 was done and then rebound when season 3 arrived? I don’t know. Just asking.

As for pros and tourney support… How anecdotal is that? Are we talking thousands of people? Hundreds? Less? Stream numbers and tournament participation can certainly be indicators of long term viability within the hardcore rank and file, but I don’t see how it’s an indication of overall sales numbers or overall growth outside of the hardcore scene.

Plus, can you really attribute new mechanics and changing characters as the sole reason for people being turned away? People come and go all the time for a variety of different reasons, whether it be new games coming out (as mentioned above), general burn out (which could come from your reasons and a variety of others as well), or others, I’m not sure how easily you can create a causal relationship based on theory of something that bothers you personally.

That would be like saying “I personally want ultimates and they’re not in the game, therefore, this game is dying because of a lack of ultimates.” There might be a kernel of truth in that statement, as I’ve seen people try and argue that something like this would draw attention to the game, but to establish a causal relationship based on personal opinion is a bit of an assumptive reach, and citing declining stream numbers and tourney participation as evidence doesn’t prove much beyond the fact that a small number of more dedicated players are (currently) leaving for your reasons and probably a variety of other reasons as well. What do you think?

When did wanting more content become a casual opinion? I must be misunderstanding. Should they instead scrap their entire game and start over from scratch to satisfy an even smaller hardcore base?

Why are you saying “everyone” and then mentioning four tourney players that the sweeping vast majority of KI players have likely never even heard of? Yes, everyone likes something new, but well… Seasons are new. They bring a lot of fresh stuff to the table and the best part is that we get them once a year, with months of new content. Should we give that up just so a few tourney players can get excited about the new game that comes out, only to jump ship for the next big thing a few months later? Not sure I love that tradeoff.

The animation for a move is due to budgetary constraints? Can you elaborate on that a bit? I don’t think I’m understanding that. Not being rhetorical. Just curious.

You presented a really good counter argument here but you didn’t actually have a rebuttal for it. So why should they build a new game from scratch on a tight budget instead of adding another season to an already great game?

I mean, I read your whole post and you make some great points about glitch issues and engine limitations, plus you mention the benefits of the hype created by a new game and I agree with all of those things.

But to me, the current game, glitch issues and engine limitations included, is still one of the best fighting games I’ve ever played. So while I value the importance of those issues and hope they can resolve the former as much as possible and work around the latter to the best of their ability, I don’t personally consider either of those things to be so detrimental to the health of the current game that it should be abandoned in favor of a new game. If you disagree though, that’s perfectly fine.

As for the hype factor… I’d argue that this game is in the unique position (for a fighting game) of being able to generate hype once a year by refreshing the old characters and bringing in new characters, stages, modes, and other stuff, and I think that approach has worked.

Yes, I’m sure it’s VERY frustrating for tourney players to have to relearn their characters over and over again and learn new matchups and relearn old ones. But for the rest of us, it’s a sales structure that keeps us engaged in the product for several months out of the year for multiple years now. There aren’t a huge number of games that can do this and I can’t really think of any in this genre.

Are glitches and engine limitations really worth killing this game over? Because we both know that’s what would happen. You really think they could afford to both work on a new game with a full head of steam AND release more content for this one at the same time? By your own admission, their budget would barely allow for one of these things, let alone both.

I really wonder where the fanbase is on this game. Is it growing or shrinking? If we go by stream numbers and pro players leaving, then yeah, I’d have to think the game’s player base is shrinking. Yet when I see MS doing all of the stuff they do with this game like putting it on PC, releasing soundtracks, doing the collectible figure stuff, doing surveys on what other items we’d like to buy, etc… I mean… You don’t do all of that if you think your game is dying, do you?

I also remember this game in the beginning, after E3 2013 but before release when it was shown to a hostile audience of FGC players that practically booed it off stage. We’ve seen this game go from that to having three successful seasons, E3’s main stage, the 6 million unique users stat, etc. To me, that says that this game is growing. I mean, MS wants KI to be their pilot game for the new tournament tech.

Doesn’t that alone, plus three years of content and merchandising show some sort of faith in this game from MS? They don’t do that on games that don’t succeed. They move on. We have several years of history backing this up.

Now, I do think that they’ll have to move on at some point and I would like to see what IG could build from the ground up, but even then, what guarantee do we have that they won’t go the seasonal route again and that it won’t have the same inherent issues we’ve already talked about? If that’s the case, then what’s really the benefit?

I bring that up because I think it’d be a legit possibility. They’ve seen how KI has kept people engaged and they’ve seen that they can do this without spending top dollar. What would honestly make them change that approach for the next game if the last approach worked?

This is really something that’s moving up to the top of my list for things that I want. Ever since they did the stage relighting, it’s made me wonder why they can’t do a project like that with say, fixing characters hair and faces and retro outfits. To me, this is all general polish that would help the game look better and at this point, I think it’s necessary. Honestly, it’s been necessary for some characters since season one.

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I’m sorry but that unreal 4 jago stage has zero personality. Itso all show and dead.
When I agree about a new full game which is cohesive. I’m not against dlc packs coming out while we wait for it.

I’d love for a brand new ki game to be made. If only for the graphic update. Switching between mkx and ki is like night and day. If I remember correctly wasn’t ki originally made for the 360?

Sorry, I should have been clearer. My argument was that your point about lower stream numbers and (offline) tournament participation is not a good indicator of the direction of the game. We have a thriving online community here, with people looking for matches and training partners in several threads, people like @PVXenoraptor and @WrathOfFulgore organising tournaments, even the salty people that only come here to complain, these cannot be ignored.
Its been kinda said above, but do you know why I don’t really watch streams anymore? Because I’d much rather be playing the game instead of watching someone do it. Also, time difference plays a big part in why I can’t watch streams. Your number accounts for the live viewers, what about folks like me who have no choice but to watch the archive or hope someone uploads it to Youtube?
Until anyone can provide solid data on the active players of this game, we’ll keep going back and forth on this debate without really getting anywhere. And even with that data, an announcement of a Season 4 or a special bonus (like Shago) would change numbers quite a bit.
I know you said this in the same post I quoted earlier,

But it doesn’t seem like you’re actually taking other factors into consideration.

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LCD I find the major flaw with your opinion is you state hearsay somewhat factually and that’s off putting. You predicate stream numbers and tournament attendance on various problems you see with S3 and variables therein. Ignoring the numerous other variables that could be effecting those metrics like other new games gaining popularity (GoW4) or perhaps the quality of KI streams. Me personally, I enjoy watching streams where the streamer is clearly having a fun and being positive.

8bitbeatdown and random character tournament seem to be having decent showings.

I’m indifferent on a new season, I hope IG doesn’t drop KI wholesale and will keep making updates. I also hope they create new skin and item content.

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I totally agree with you on the cohesion part, and I really REALLY hope they’ll go back add in more content over time so that stuff a season one character has matches what a season two character has and so on (in term of story) and I’d love it if every character had the same number of colors and accessories. I think you and I are on the same page with most of this stuff.

I do however worry that with KI’s already limited budget, how conceivable it’d actually be to get DLC packs AND a new game (if that’s what you’re talking about). I mean, if they start developing a new KI game, how can they honestly afford to develop that while also developing content for what’s currently out there? Do you think that’s possible?

Also, I feel like there’s this assumption out there that if we get a new KI game that it’ll automatically be a traditional, full, retail release. But who’s to say we don’t get a new seasonal game? Would you really want to start over from scratch with eight characters and a few modes? For what? Better graphics?

There’s some actual footage of the 360 version out there and I can tell you it looks like hot garbage compared to the Xbox One version.

I think it’d be awesome if they could do a stage relighting level project where they gussied up the characters a bit. Fixed some awkward animations, smoothed out some textures, fixed faces, hair and some of the retros that really need it. I think that this would go a LONG way in improving the overall look of the game.

As a scientist by trade, I really feel like I have to challenge this notion:

Hypothesis: KI S3 is a step back compared to past seasons.
Proof: Stream numbers are down.

While your observation is true, immediately concluding that one is the result of the other is really misleading and a little dishonest.

I can only speak for myself, but I stopped watching most KI streams because of toxicity. And from what I’ve heard from others, I may not be the only one. Both in stream chat and on screen. I still think KI is a fun and good game, and I think S3 has ways it can improve. But those are not the reasons I largely stopped watching KI on twitch.

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My opinion of twitch streams in general. There are very few streams i go on to now. And very few streamers I respect.

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This is the pertinent question to me. I hate to sound like a broken record, but people need to make real choices. I think we are choosing between season 4 and nothing. Not some fantasy where MS hands somebody a Halo budget to make a new KI. We won’t be waiting 3-4 years for an Unreal 4 powered KI. We will be waiting forever. Believe me, I’d love to see it but I don’t think we will.

And certainly everyone is entitled to express their own thoughts and ideas, but I’m not sure that repeatedly telling MS we don’t want more content translates into good things for KI’s future.

EDIT: also, I have to point out how deeply flawed the “I don’t like the direction of S3 - therefore a new game is better than S4” argument is. What do people think, that they are going to recreate S2 in Unreal Engine? A sequel is going to have new and different mechanics. Otherwise why make it? (looks at Tekken). Well, I guess some games just re-release with better graphics and a new number on the end but it’s the exception. All three KI games have radically different gameplay and aesthetics. The idea that a fourth version will be everything you like about this game with better graphics and nothing that you don’t like is really… juvenile.

As far as stream numbers, I would call “toxicity” melodramatic. But I have better things to do with my time than watch people play a game while constantly complaining about it.

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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I got mentioned…

Yay! I feel special now!

lol

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This.

People… We waited how many years for a new KI? This game was improbable from the start. A niche game in a niche genre and if Adam Isgreen doesn’t fight for it, we likely never see this iteration at all.

Now I do think that MS likes KI. I think they probably take pride in how much of a community has been built up around a great product on a tight budget. They should take pride in that. But once it ends, I really think that there are no guarantees. MS tends to try things out and then move on from them and when they move on, they rarely go back to it again. Just ask fans of Alan Wake, Banjo, Perfect Dark, Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, Kameo and the myriad of original Xbox titles that seemingly built their core stable of franchises, only to disappear when the 360 came along.

I get that this has to end some time and I get that wanting a KI sequel is still wanting KI, I just worry that saying you’ve had enough of this, and you want more is not going to end the way you want it to. I tend to agree with Andy. It’s very possible that some people aren’t choosing from the choices that they think they’re choosing from when they say no to season 4.

I think the word is pretty appropriate, to be honest. I relegate “melodrama” to things that are childish/immature, but don’t really have any impact on the real world. The toxicity of KI stream chats has done real, measurable damage to the game, from popular streamers quitting the game (Grimmmz, HKSmash, others), to the devs themselves withdrawing from being active in the community. And this doesn’t count the many hundreds of viewers, like yourself, who have decided they have better uses of their time and mental energy.


To talk specifically about the graphics for a KI sequel using something like Unreal 4, I think you guys are forgetting that the current KI is actually a really pretty game that is only ugly in spots because of lack of consistency in the design. Unreal 4 isn’t going to solve lack of consistency, nor will it really make the game better IMO (in fact, because of the PC power required to make it work, it will make the game less accessible, not more). I think current KI needs to be more graphically consistent, not necessarily move to Unreal 4.

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Honestly, if streams had more of a vibe like this site has as far as the community is concerned, I’d watch a lot of them. Maybe not every day or every time they’re airing or whatever, but I’d make them a part of my entertainment spectrum. I tried for a while, but that’s over.

The ones I’ve seen… Honestly, there’s a lot of negativity either from the streamer or from the comments or both. I downloaded Twitch a long time ago, but I’ve honestly never commented during any stream before and I try not to see the comments as much as possible because there’s usually a substantial tendency for people to overreact, to form hive-minds and to try and be the funniest person in the room and a lot of what comes from those things can result in negativity.

For me, it’s not a particularly big deal. Would I like to talk to some cool people in real time and listen to a pleasant, informed person talk about something that we all enjoy? Yeah, that sounds great in theory. I don’t need them to agree with me and I’m not saying it all has to be sunshine and rainbows. Sure, talk about your issues with the game. But when the person has an air of self-importance or they complain constantly or they come off like they’re trying to be edgy or whatever… You match that with a comments section full of negativity and yeah, why would I bother? Why put myself through that? This stuff is suppose to be fun, after all. If this site was filled to the brim with jerks, I wouldn’t be here either.

I think its to soon for a sequel like way to soon street fighter V came out a whole console gen after street fighter IV if anything make a sequel in the middle of scorpios life not at the begining they should however make one or two more seasons to keep the scene growing and address fan issues being the key goals of the season