Sadira players struggle with damage because 89% of thier entire combo is juggling. Sadira should Open you from the Air Mix-Up, rack up damage on the ground, follow up launcher enders with Air juggle shenanigans. Everyone I see just kinda ignores her level 4 launchers for short 20% juggle shadow cash-out.
Just risk doing more combos and counter-breakers, she opens people up crazy easy any. Glacius gets his damage because nobody starts juggling when they already have a lockout, both shadow meters, and a damage ender is why Glacius gets alright damage.
I think ppl more than not play dumb with her. Plus her air juggles arenāt easy to break. Her damage sucks but her set play from on top of you is ātrickyā. She doesnāt do anything better among anyone in the cast, thatās why i have her low tierā¦
I think a lot of people here forgets that the characters have good and bad MUs by design. The devs aim to all characters being viable, and not making most MUs very loopsided, but all chars have weak and strong points by design and on porpuse.
Many of you are here claiming āhow things should goā without considering the big picture. Most people ask for nerfs or buffs without actually knowing all the posibilities at hand.
Most people havenāt go to the training to test what to do and when to do it against the characters who annoy you. Glacius and Rash seem to be getting the hate lately. Previously, Sadira, Kan-Ra, Tusk, Jago, Thunder or Gargos got some hate during previous seasons or during this one, because people complains and complains about how ābrokenā some stuff is, but the research they did was minimal to counter it.
Maybe Iām an old man. Maybe, when really broken stuff appeared when I played, people where more used to work around it, searching for counters to negate the broken stuff, revealing that sometimes, it wasnāt that broken.
Now I see people demanding changes for everything that annoys them. Which makes me sad, because I donāt see people desiring to overcome a challenge, which is the nature of fighting games, and instead, the what I call āModern accesibility syndromeā appears, this is, making everything more easy and accesible, losing charm and uniqueness.
I would love to see less complaining and more people facing the challenges they have in front of them
Kinda a side effect of having an awesome open dialogue with the developers, I suppose. Not to mention it seems like they have made tweaks relating to complaints in the past, though this may just be correlation instead of causation.
To be fair, Sadira, Kan-Ra, Gargos and Rash WERE all broken at one time.
Sadira and Kan-Ra for sure. In both S1 and S2 Sadira had ways to get over the top damage by breaking the system. Kan Ra was just way too strong for his archetype, and he had stuff that could just flat out break the game.
Then why after so long of being good does no one still play him? I know whyā¦ His setups and functional gameplay are not free like some characters who get reward reward with little risk. Fulgore is all risk. Good or not they more or less buried him by beating a dead horse. Glacius gets easy meter, and on a lockout will most likely kill you if youāre at around half a bar.
Iāve heard that argument over and over, strongest character by people that donāt play him. Iāve heard it since the beginning of S2. If heās soooo good, super strong character, should be easy to win with right? Then go dominate the tournament scene with this āsupposedā best character in the game. It wonāt happen. Heās gimped by the fact that his only strong point is being on the offensive all the time. The moment heās put on defense, heās garbage. Risk a DP is all you have. If they come at you from the get go, and have a plethora of frame traps at their disposal, or long pressure strings, just watch them go up to a stock of shadow or 2 while youāre still waiting for your first pip. Good luck. I want to see someone actually play the character, top players ranked and go take a tourney with how easy it āshouldā be due to all the āstrongestā arguments I keep hearing. I wonāt accept arguments on heresay anymore for Fulgore. I want them all backed up by actual gameplay and tourney presence and not just by Nicky. Nicky is in my opinion the best KI player right now. He could pick any character put effort into and win. But in all of 3 years of KI only Nicky consistently did good with Fulgore. But me not being a tourney player means my thoughts and ideas behind a character I played for 3 years straight mean simply bubcus because Iām not a ātierā player. People say strong, I donāt see it and I donāt feel it in his gameplay. I have no struggles facing him. The things people complained about, teleports, high lows, if you sat in the lab and just did those yourself youād learn the punish timing. It isnāt hard. Either that or people just are not gifted with reaction time, only reads and lack reaction. That in itself doesnāt warrant a character being nerfed. But then again, what do I know, in the eyes of most of the forum/fgc here Iām just a āfilthy casualā.
His setups and gameplay are objectively way less risky than characters like, say, Hisako.
Two strengths of a character without listing all the weaknesses or details. Seems like good reasoning.
Because heās hard to play and get to mastery with. But a tier list doesnāt give af about character difficulty, just how well they perform at maximum potential.[quote=āSullenMosquito, post:51, topic:21106ā]
The moment heās put on defense, heās garbage. Risk a DP is all you have.
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Do you understand how many characters in the game would kill for his defense.
Heās a hard to play, not too damaging character. Of course he doesnāt āfeel strong.ā[quote=āSullenMosquito, post:51, topic:21106ā]
Either that or people just are not gifted with reaction time, only reads and lack reaction.
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Blocking his mixups is a guess, itās not possible to block on reaction to most of his options. Stop.
It really is. A lot of powerful characters arenāt heavily played. Mira, aria,tusk, omen. Meanwhile sadira is still fairly common. By his logic she must be great.
It is interesting how rare the top 5 are online. Itās like the best characters are locked by a skill barrier preventing them from being too dominant while still allowing them to be strong. This leads to people struggling to succeed creating feelings that their character is weak.
The only ones who agrees theyāre strong as hell are the ones that reached a high level with them. Or lab heavy players and things of that nature. They found out how strong they are. After playing him through most of s2 I could tell omen was going to be top 5 free when they showed his s3 version.
@SullenMosquito, i donāt believe iāve ever played against you. Would like to at some point. But youāve never heard of me very likely, no? But this is something about me; i play to win. Iām out playing ranked, asking for sets, looking over my own losses, watching streams, yada yada yada, you get the picture. Iām not about to bore you with my KI life story. I have my fun with the game, but i play to excel at it. Fulgore, to put it bluntly, doesnāt interest me. I like to win, but it isnāt going to be with the bot so i spend my time figuring out how to beat the bot and the other 28 characters.
You donāt want to accept arguments on heresay of a player or players that do not play Fulgore? Thatās your call. You just shut yourself out of so much outside thought, insight and just out-and-out possibility for inspiration that you gimped your own progress as a player. I can count maybe 5 known Kim Wu players. Iāve gotten more inspiration on my game watching/talking to OTHERS than i have them.
When put on defense, heās garbage? Learn, create, and innovate. Wallowing doesnāt help nothing. I struggle in a matchup against Cinder that favors my character, so i try to master it. I know Aganos destroys my character so i go ask for a set with Letalis to learn it, get whupped, and ask for pointers. Iām not relying on YouTube/Twitch/Twitter to provide me flat out with how i should play my character, iām working out stuff as much as i can manage along with that info. And after all that, i ask is my characterās defense garbage or is my defense garbage. But i donāt play Fulgore so you can take everything i just said in this paragraph for a grain of salt.
But at the end of the day, you are your own player. Youāre allowed your thoughts, your opinions and insights. Iām not about to take your time playing the character as nothing unless you make a statement that isnāt right. We can argue opinion till weāre blue in the face. Hereās the thing from your statement that irks me. You seem to take for granted just how difficult it is to make a top 8 AND how difficult it is to win. For all that Nicky has done with Fulgore, i can recall a few times heās made top 8 on losers side. For any particular player, it is going to be very difficult to win a tournament running only 1 character. You bring BOTH of these together and youāre not listening to players that havenāt done both?
Iāve accepted plenty of arguments against Fulgoreās nerfs, but when they go full opposite opposing issues with their own character of course I wonāt consider their opinions anymore. Fulgoreās recent nerfs were the exact same as Jagoās and everyone justified it yet almost following suit within minutes I see the same person saying clearly, a character should never be nerfed based on the characteristics of another character since the cast of KI is soo varied. Yet here they are justifying Fulgoreās normal nerfs when he is nothing like Jago. 95% of the people on these forums have not had their character on the chopping block since Late s1. No other character has had more move changes, reworks, frame data changes, loss of damage, instinct changes, hell almost every change in the game than Fulgore. a good 35% of the changes Fulgore got effected his gameplay in such a way that you had to cut and relearn a lot of his gameplay and setups and follow ups. The way Cinder played on release, is still how he plays now. Same for Jago, same for most characters. Some even got new setups through new tools (Glacius) where Fulgoreās lost setups. Lost pip cancels. Lost a good instinct. Now his is just mediocre. Lost some good pressure normals. They take a strong offensive character with very limited defensive options and continue to strip his offense too. They took the multi hit DP so heās less frustrating against armored opponents, ok sure for a DP yeah thatās justified. But he doesnāt have much for multi hit moves (shadow moves) that he can just build up to punish an armored target properly and strip that armor for an opener. He has to hope for a chain light jab or a heavy hit which involves him being up close and personal. Against an armored opponent youāre not going to use a heavy unless they whiff something big but against fulgore you no longer need to risk while youāre armored against him. He canāt dp you. He has Med eye laser and thatās about it. The day I see a good Fulgore come out of the woodwork again will be the day Iāll go back on my thoughts on the character. But no one will ever justify playing him. Itās just too much work. Youāll grind yourself into a coma to be average at best. If you donāt play perfect you wonāt beat the easy peasy gimmicks some other characters can rely on. (cold shoulder spam for one) Yeah, there are ways to beat it. Timing those responses is not likely. Itās too random a special to just know how to beat it. Itās 100% safe for Glacius and requires a meter punish. A free special that requires a meter punish is (too good) of a tool. They nerfed Fulgoreās damage due to the amount of tools he has. Theyāve given Glacius a plethora of new tools including a meterless DP, amazing instinct, better normals, yet his damage remains intact. And here we have Fulgore, losing tools, losing + frame normals, losing instinct options, losing plenty of things over the past 2 years, and his damage still remains in the bottom 25%. Yet people argue against my issues with Glacius and some other characters yet Iām using the same reasoning Fulgore got changes to try and justify changes for other characters. Glacius has a huge amount of tools, unblockables, throw setups, itās astounding all the tools he has on paper for me to comprehend the fact that on a lockout he can just burn meter and annihilate you for 60%+ on top of send you full screen if he chooses. So yes, Glacius in my eyes needs some downplay. Cold shoulder needs to be less artificially safe. Invincible puddle punch was far too good to give a zoner but he has it. Canāt do much about it. I donāt even want to talk about Glaciusā instinct. Itās probably top 5 best in game. You get soo much from it.
As far as the Fulgore on defense being garbage, yes he is. He gains nothing being there where everyone else gets a defensive option. They get meter for a shadow counter. Fulgore has to have that pre built. He has to tech a throw or risk a dp. People force he has a dp down all of our throats time and time again. Yet half the cast have access to meterless reversals. Some have meter only reversals, but like I said, all characters but Fulgore gain access to their reversal eventually on defense. You can frame trap him to death while giving yourself free meter and he canāt do anything about it. Pressure string him. Fulgore is weak without meter, and it isnāt hard to keep him without meter with the right play. It isnāt like heās gonna blow you up with damage or infinite pressure, he has hardly anything that is + and the ones that are + only have 2 follow ups. Tick throw or DP to keep the turn. Jab to put back to neutral. Thatās it. Most all characters have that option similarly too. Fulgore lost far too much to justify his damage being low while other characters gain without their damage being lowered. Heās a dead character. Itās been nearly a month and I havenāt faced one online. Not even low rank players are using him. There is nothing fun about the mental anguish you put yourself through trying to play just above average with Fulgore now.
Iām aware Nicky did well with Fulgore, but he didnāt do well because of Fulgore, he did well because he is Nicky. He could pick almost any character that suits him and do amazing. The fact that he played Fulgore was just icing for me. But now Fulgore is either back burner or no pick for him. Simple as that. Fulgore isnāt this unbeatable character either, well, people still portray him that way based on āpaperā. Technically anyone with an invincible move and 1 frame reaction time is unbeatable. Nerf them all right? Getting top 8 is hard, but weāve seen the same batch of players consistently making it there. With a wide variety of characters. Who is the lease used? You guessed it. That should also speak volumes. There werenāt consistent Fulgore mains making top placements until S3. Took over 2 years, and we had it for a solid 75% of S3 that Nicky was on top with Fulgore. But here we are, Nicky is still on top but no Fulgore. So those few that were saying the character is carrying him and even him joking about it basically because it became a meme. Donāt hold much appeal to me. If he immediately dropped out of the top scene because he stopped playing Fulgore, Iād admit the character was how he did it, but it isnāt.
Maya, spinal, Gargos, arbiter. Thereās others but I only need to list 4.[quote=āSullenMosquito, post:59, topic:21106ā]
The way Cinder played on release, is still how he plays now. Same for Jago, same for most characters.
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After playing lemonhunter post 3.8 Heās still largely the same.[quote=āSullenMosquito, post:59, topic:21106ā]
Against an armored opponent youāre not going to use a heavy unless they whiff something
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Perhaps you arenāt. But he has a long reaching heavy and a sweep that acts as a target combo that he can still very much use against Aganos. Who is the main character that was affected by this. [quote=āSullenMosquito, post:59, topic:21106ā]
The day I see a good Fulgore come out of the woodwork a
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Nicky,lemonhunter and deadly Kansas is improving with him fairly quickly.[quote=āSullenMosquito, post:59, topic:21106ā]
As far as the Fulgore on defense being garbage, yes he is. He gains nothing being there where everyone else gets a defensive option. They get meter for a shadow counter. Fulgore has to have that pre built. He has to tech a throw or risk a dp. People force he has a dp down all of our throats time and time again. Yet half the cast have access to meterless reversals. Some have meter only reversals, but like I said, all characters but Fulgore gain access to
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Anytime I fight a good Fulgore getting meter isnāt really difficult for them. Even before the nerfs however there were very few who were good with him to start with. I advise you to try playing someone like eagle whos only option is to shadow counter. Shadow counters get baited. Then a character like eagle spinal rash etc are left with no options but to block. Iām sure theyd love a reversal then.
He has 4 + buttons. Which is fairly standard for most and the only one that hits twice is st.hp. his cr mk is still good for pressure since youāre at a distance where you canāt punish. Rash only has 2 buttons that are +. Tj only has one . Being + isnāt the only thing that determines whether a characters pressure is good. Start up, range, how fast they recover etc are all factors as well. Fulgore also has one of the longest throw ranges in game beat only by aganos glacius and eyedol. So this makes his tick throw set ups pretty strong.
Omen correct? Since there has only been one person to use him in top 8 and that was runex at evo. Rico used him as well but more as surprise mus or counter picks. There have actually been 4 Fulgore players to make top 8 throughout kiās lifecycle. Nicky is just the most notable.
Fulgore is still a poweful character. If you think hes dead then perhaps look into another character or look at your own flaws as a player.
