I see plenty of healthy conversation happening, but you keep trying to derail it. If you’re not interested in the topic, please move on. Thanks.
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I’d figure the best solution would be to invite Ultra David here to join in the discussion personally. I think it would be a good experience for both everyone here and David.
It would give him a chance to ask questions, elaborate on opinions, confer with people who have an in depth understanding of the game and perhaps even developers.
It would also give forum members a chance to have some insight from am FGC veteran, as well as an outside perspective.
If folks consider that his opinion seems uneducated, why not educate him with the meta-knowledge we’ve gained spending so much time with this game? If his opinion seems to be tapered by years of experience that may make him seem more qualified to speak on them, then wouldn’t it be more prudent to have him share some of his experiences so that we may improve our own strategies with the wealth of FGC wisdom he could provide.
We get to share our perspective as experienced KI players with him, he gets to share his as an FGC veteran with us, and it cuts out a good chunk of the he said-she said-bullshit.
Sounds like a win-win-win to me.
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So I’ve actually had a rough day, in terms of actual life happenings. One of the upsides to such a day though, is the perspective that it provides on just how little this stuff actually matters. 
@MDMMORNING - the “auto meaty grenade setup” UD is referring to is simply Arbiter’s ability to put a set-play grenade on you after any combo. That’s it.
With regards to UD’s tweets, they’re just general observations of what he likes and dislikes about the game - nothing more and nothing less. It wasn’t epic rant crapping on KI, and I don’t see why some of you are taking it that way. I could go on for a quite a bit longer than UD did about what characters annoy me in KI and why, and each of us in here could as well. No one agrees with every character or design decision in a game - least of all one with as crazy a cast as KI.
Ultra David is a knowledgeable FG guy, but KI has never exactly been his speed; to be honest I’m just glad he enjoys the game now at all, as he didn’t used to back in the hallowed days of Season 1. Some things hit and miss with every game for people, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Plenty of very experienced players tweet and say much nastier things about SFV than UD’s relatively anodyne observations here. And other players from other games have also said very nice things about KI, including Coach Steve, who’s Raam is going to be a nightmare in a month or two.
People have opinions. They differ based on the person’s experiences and preferences. Really nothing more to it than that.
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Precisely this!
@STORM179: I thought that was the case. I dunno, referring to it as an auto-meaty makes it sound a lot cheaper than it is (don’t get me wrong, it so deliciously cheap). But, indeed, too hyphy do some get. Matters ultimately, it does not.
UD and my personal character taste tend to clash in other games but I agree with him for the most part when it comes to KI.
However, I have yet to play a Fighting Game where I liked every single character design. There has always been at least one of two characters in every game I’ve played that I felt was dumb as hell. KI included.
I do feel like Arbiter getting automatic meatys feels kinda cheesy at this time. Don’t really have a opinion on Gargos yet, he seems fine to me right now, basic momentum character where you cant let him get the ball rolling.
Personally I’m not concerned about this. Like I mentioned before every game I’ve played has had a design I have felt was stupid or busted (Seth, 3S Yun, Quan Chi, Superman, list goes on) and I feel the same with KI. Doesn’t really detract from my enjoyment of the game so far.
Either the characters will dominate and people will adjust or they will get nerfed like Kan-Ra, Maya, Sadira have in the past.
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Seems he’s mostly polarized about Season 3 characters, with Omen thrown in for being a very simple design as a bonus character which says more about the recent direction character design is going instead of the game overall.
Has he expressed his likes and dislikes about S1 and S2 characters though, in particular how they handle now in S3 instead of before?
Sigh… everyday I just see the KI community dying and getting more divisive. So sad imo to see how people talk to eachother and all the constant conplaining on all matters.
Almost no one streams anymore (atleast any of the OG streamers with a good amount if viewers.)
All the players that got me excited to watch/play either quit or only play during tourneys.
The forum has turned to… you can guess the four letter word.
I will ride this dying horse until the end but it is unfortunate.
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I don’t think Ultra David is simply making a “I like this character, I don’t like that character” type of post.
I think, especially with Arbiter, he’s suggesting that the character designs really suck the fun out of the game when you’re fighting against them.
I can understand not liking a character design, or thinking it’s tough to fight against, but there is a slight difference in what he’s suggesting. Remember S2 KanRa?
Characters like that will eventually stop people from coming back to the game, and our goal is to keep new players.
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I get that reference…I think…maybe. Your talking about the movie with the kid right??
What’s the topic though Paul? Ultra David has some Twitter thoughts about KI. He doesn’t like some stuff and he does like some other stuff. That’s fine. He’s obviously a guy with some clout in the community so I will take it for granted that he is worth listening to. But when you read what he wrote there’s not much there. It’s mostly just pure subjective opinion rather than a reasoned analysis of any KI character or tool. I might as well be listening to his opinion on ice cream flavors. I’m not sure I can get behind the idea that community clout should elevate your subjective opinions - which is the conversation that has derailed the thread.
“Gargos has too many tools, so it’s annoying.” Not sure what to do with that. I can offer a contrary opinion but then a mob of people is going to tell me I’m not as important as UltraDavid.
“I don’t like omen because he’s transparent.” Not much to discuss there.
General Raam’s kryll attack is annoying because it obstructs the screen. That’s true, but it’s the point of the attack - plus it’s an impressive tie in to the characters identity from Gears. So I give it a lot of credit for that.
The only tweet in here that seems to have merit for any sort of discussion of substance as far as I can tell is the last one. He finds the game to be polarizing with really good choices and really bad ones.
I actually think this makes sense because KI has been filled with a lot of bold decisions. They have been brave about trying new and different things and pushing the envelope when it comes to fighting design. There aren’t six minor variations of the same shoto character in this game. When you make bold choices people aren’t always going to like all of them. I don’t like all of them. But the game has been consistently interesting.
As far as UltraDavid’s tweeting, I think “there’s no such thing as bad publicity.” He’s talking about KI, so that’s good. But I do think the FGC is pretty myopic. You guys are deeply involved in a pretty small world -and there’s nothing at all wrong with that. But of the supposedly 7 million people who have tried KI I’m guessing less than 10% have ever even heard of UltraDavid. I don’t want to take a shot at the FGC but let’s keep it in perspective.
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That’s what I’m seeing, personally.
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To be fair, there are only two shotos in SFV and their game plans are distinctly different.
As far as bold decisions go I think the move away from combo traits mattering more inside a combo and now are closer to “tack on extra damage” isn’t a good idea. This started with Aganos and Cinder but it was unique to them at the time, especially with Aganos being easiest combos to break and needing another way to get in damage.
I personally love complexity and variety. Traditional things put me to sleep after a while. I like engaging my mind on deeper and more intense levels. KI does this for me in a multitude of ways and not just by testing my execution or whiff punishing abilities (which is super fun too).
It almost feels like they created the game to my liking. It has alot of things I love from multiple FGs and very few things I hate about them. The icing on the cake is all the new things not seen before in a fg that KI has invented/innovated.
All I know is I Always have fun playing KI. Theres an archetype/hybrid for whatever approach you’re in the mood for.
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ffs, come on guys. Do the humble opinions of one (admittedly pretty prominent) commentator in the FGC really need to be weaponized like this? You’re basically forcing someone who just wants to talk about the game to watch his every word, lest he get wrapped up in fickle FGC politics. This is why high-profile people stop discussing things frankly with their fans and the wider community. We should be better than this.
I respect UltraDavid. I spent a bit of time watching him pick up KI, it was impressive to see his thought process quickly clue in to the risk-reward mechanisms of the game in a way that still seems to evade many of KI’s critics who have been playing this game for years. He’s obviously capable of engaging with the mechanism design of a game on a deeper level than the pedestrian ideals of pure, honest play that get peddled as immutable laws by less thoughtful sections of the community.
But it’s frustrating to see him being held up like a puppet for someone else’s agenda when he offers a critique of the game. It’s not surprising that UD doesn’t like everything about the game. Don’t spin a couple of tweets into something they’re not. It’s manipulative and disingenuous.
The wider FGC grew up on Street Fighter. Far too consistently, when the wider FGC criticizes KI, they’re talking about how certain tools which could never exist in a SF game should not exist in KI. I’ve seen PaulB claim that he doesn’t want KI to be a SF clone, but if IG took the consensus changelist of KI’s critics within the wider FGC and implemented them, we would have
- No breaker system;
- No safe forward-traveling unreactables (e.g. wind kick);
- No half-screen command grabs;
- No trap-grappling (Glacius, Kan-Ra);
- No assist-driven archetypes;
- No projectile rushdown;
- No powerline;
- Substantially reduced frame trap pressure;
- Less resource- or assist-based combat designs;
- Less archetypal hybrids in general (to quell complaints that certain characters have “too many tools”);
- etc.
KI as the prevalent wave of criticism decrees would clamp down on anything deemed “YOLO” and refocus the neutral on footsies driven by close-to-midrange space control with normals and whiff-punishing and other elements deemed to be a part of “honest play”.
PaulB probably doesn’t want all of these things, but he’s on the record advocating for at least half of it. Some people have taken issue with the maxim that “if you don’t like it, you can always move on to a different game,” but if you’re calling for more of the above than not, you should be seriously asking whether your interest in KI runs only skin-deep, because at its core KI is that game where the offense is disgusting and the opening isn’t the final word. KI is oppressive screen-crossing moves that aren’t YOLO precisely because they’re safe or difficult to defend against or both. If you’re asking for enough of the above stuff, you’re asking to play Street Fighter – a game that exists in many popular incarnations right now, so you should leave those of us who really want to explore the implications of the unique, oppressive, high-power archetypes of KI to our devices and stop trying to take that away from us.
Not every game has to be for you. If KI is stagnating in popularity among the wider FGC simply because it isn’t mechanically a clone of SF (a claim I’m still not convinced of, by-the-by), then so be it. Plenty of people believe what is here has merit, and KI can grow its own community among people newcomers who agree, as any new and unique recreation does. This has been happening already.
[quote=“ZDhome, post:26, topic:12527”]You guys are going WAY TO DEEP into specifics …
Every point needs to be listened to, instead of being torn apart with excuses about why their opinion isn’t 100% justified.
[/quote]
You’ll note that the points were listened to in order to be picked apart. That’s how discussion works: it’s not a lecture that ends with a call to action on the things that a few notable people want done, it’s an interactive process where points get evaluated on their merit.
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Your whole post is way off base. I don’t advocate for a single thing on your list. I only advocate for a relatively balanced risk/reward ratio across the cast.
For example, Fulgore’s overhead is 19 frames and can be canceled into a 2-hitting low special that is currently (until the next patch) +2 on block. You can’t shadow counter it because Fulgore can pip cancel to DP.
Wulf’s overhead is 18 frames and is punishable on block.
I don’t know how to justify this difference. Stuff like this bothers me. These are the types of things I advocate for. Please don’t misquote or misrepresent my opinions.
Also, there are plenty of almost-full-screen safe moves in SF, so your’e making odd comparisons. Seems like you’re not familiar with what that game is about.
I’ve also seen this “Certain people want KI to be SF” argument, and it really makes no sense. Literally no one is asking for that.
Have you made this case in the game suggestions forum yet? That would be the ideal place to do it.
…and I thought I was being vague. 
Are you sure about that? I’ll have to see if a recording of that lengthy season 2 stream you did still exists, in which you basically eviscerated the game. I took some notes from it intending on responding to it at the time, but never got around to it.
The half of the list I take you as lining up with is:
- No breaker system (“people don’t want to play the counter breaker game”, preference of S1 manuals over IGs restrictions, desire to eliminate guess breaking from the game via some mechanism);
- No trap-grappling (calling Glacius’s unblockable shatter and associated setups unfair/overwhelming, all sorts of things about Kan-Ra, this post);
- No assist-driven archetypes (again, this post generally leans in that direction);
- No powerline (are you really going to argue that you haven’t called powerline ■■■■■■■■■ over and over again?);
- To some extent: less archetypal hybrids in general (you’re holding up UD’s tweets as gospel, as he expressed frustration with gargos having too many tools).
I also took down some bullet points from you lamenting a lack of traditional footsies in the video – again I’d have to see it again to really figure out what you were saying. I think things you’ve said before dabble into the other points, but I’m more concerned with the overall message which has seemed to be that you want the offense in KI toned down drastically so that honest play can prevail.
People can change their minds about things, of course. If what you’re saying is that the things you said before are no longer representative of where you stand, then okay.
You weren’t the primary target of my post regardless. I still think that the people in the wider FGC who have spoken up in criticism of KI’s mechanics, who @ZDhome wants us to care about the opinions of lest our competitive scene slowly fades into irrelevance, are pushing for the items on that list. I see it here, on other forums, in comments sections, in chats, etc. When competitive-minded players talk about what turns them off of the game, it’s usually a big chunk of that list, and it reeks of wanting to think of KI in SF terms.
Other people can speak to their rationale behind wanting Wulf’s overhead to be reactable and unsafe, the overall message seemed to be that Wulf’s other tools at that range are far too strong taken as a whole for his overhead to be safe or unreactable. I had this argument with Infil earlier in the year, e.g. here.
Personally I still kinda think Wulf’s overhead should be unreactable. That might not even be a thought you agree with, based on what I gleaned from your video. I probably wouldn’t mind it being safe instead, but that’s definitely my second choice.
If you’re saying that Fulgore’s overhead should be weaker, I disagree. An iconic part of KI is strong overheads that lead to real damage, and I wouldn’t have it any other way. If you’re saying that something needs to be done about Fulgore beating shadow counters with pip cancels, I think that can’t be considered in isolation – you need to think about Fulgore’s meter management overall, how a combination of pip cancels, the way he generates meter, and a lack of meter overall tend to shut off options like projectile-invulnerable moves and shadow counters that other characters have access to. I suspect it balances out, but Fulgore is a complex character, so I don’t know.
Do you have any examples? I mean e.g. something like a wind kick that you have to block pre-emptively and that leads to good damage. It looks like Ken can do something like that with V-trigger tatsu, and man were people complaining about it!
I’m also thinking of stuff like Wulf threatening a midscreen high-low mixup, Thunder having an unreactable midscreen command grab, TJ being able to go in with armored powerline or mix it up with shoot toss, etc. The midscreen is far more contested in KI than it is in SF, in fact that’s one of the points Infil attests to so well in his guide.
I’ve flipped the script before and lamented out in the open that I couldn’t have a SF character with strong frame trap pressure and a wind kick-like move to oppress the midscreen, and people have responded that that’s not street fighter and isn’t the game they want to play. If you can point me to a SFV character who does these things, maybe I’ll pick that game up!
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Someone who know well fighting games likes “simple” characters and dont like the ones with most tools, namely Gargos.
The point is that he actually doesn’t play often, and what seems to be free damage or setups for arby or gargos has a counter.
IMO UD opinions are good to hear, but maybe his lack of knowlege of the game doesn’t help him to understand WHY the characters have X tools. Good to see him talking about KI, and I would gladly discuss him why I belive he isn’t looking at the big picture
@llPaulBll, about your point on Fulgore overhead, you are right, on paper seems odd. But:
-Wulfs overhead its a special, so you can cancel it from a low normal. Fulgore cant cancel any normal into overhead.
-Wulfs overhead has more range
-Wulf gets meter when blocked. Fulgore doesn’t
All these factors (and more) should be looked to balance this, not only frame data and follow ups.
MAYBE Fulgore needs one adjustment in this area. But I see why wulf its unsafe and Fulgore can be made safe.
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I don’t want to get into this too much, but will say a few quick things:
It’s disingenuous to just say “Fulgore has a 19f overhead that’s safe, Wulf has 18f that is unsafe, this is unfair” because it’s not the full package. Wulf also has Overpower, perhaps the best space control normal in the game (and it’s a normal, not a special like Blade Dash, so it can be special canceled), and Wulf’s overhead/low mixup comes from way farther out than Fulgore. He also covers space in a way that is more effective than Fulgore at some ranges (fast crossup dash + air dive kick for positioning). Maybe you think Wulf still needs unreactable and/or safe overheads because this isn’t enough… okay. But you have to talk about the toolsets as a whole, not just isolate one move, compare it to another kinda-similar-but-not-really move from another character, and say “these don’t line up”.
Ultradavid is allowed to criticize KI as much as he wants (as is everyone). The difference is that he is doing it respectfully (no threats/insults against players or developers), nor is he doing it hoping to stir up some great revolution. He’s just a guy talking on twitter about things he likes and things he doesn’t like. To the person earlier in the thread that says David hasn’t ever said anything nice about KI, that’s not true at all. He has talked about things he’s liked in the game in numerous past tweets and during his streams/youtube commentaries. I think it’s cool he likes the game even a little bit, because in the past (ie, before the PC release and before he played it), he’s been a critic of the breaker system and I thought it would always block his enjoyment of the game. So if he’s able to enjoy parts of the game and get into it a bit, great! Trying to weaponize his tweets to power some movement about how “the game needs to change” is unfair to the community, and to be honest, also unfair to Ultradavid.
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