I personally love complexity and variety. Traditional things put me to sleep after a while. I like engaging my mind on deeper and more intense levels. KI does this for me in a multitude of ways and not just by testing my execution or whiff punishing abilities (which is super fun too).
It almost feels like they created the game to my liking. It has alot of things I love from multiple FGs and very few things I hate about them. The icing on the cake is all the new things not seen before in a fg that KI has invented/innovated.
All I know is I Always have fun playing KI. Theres an archetype/hybrid for whatever approach you’re in the mood for.
ffs, come on guys. Do the humble opinions of one (admittedly pretty prominent) commentator in the FGC really need to be weaponized like this? You’re basically forcing someone who just wants to talk about the game to watch his every word, lest he get wrapped up in fickle FGC politics. This is why high-profile people stop discussing things frankly with their fans and the wider community. We should be better than this.
I respect UltraDavid. I spent a bit of time watching him pick up KI, it was impressive to see his thought process quickly clue in to the risk-reward mechanisms of the game in a way that still seems to evade many of KI’s critics who have been playing this game for years. He’s obviously capable of engaging with the mechanism design of a game on a deeper level than the pedestrian ideals of pure, honest play that get peddled as immutable laws by less thoughtful sections of the community.
But it’s frustrating to see him being held up like a puppet for someone else’s agenda when he offers a critique of the game. It’s not surprising that UD doesn’t like everything about the game. Don’t spin a couple of tweets into something they’re not. It’s manipulative and disingenuous.
The wider FGC grew up on Street Fighter. Far too consistently, when the wider FGC criticizes KI, they’re talking about how certain tools which could never exist in a SF game should not exist in KI. I’ve seen PaulB claim that he doesn’t want KI to be a SF clone, but if IG took the consensus changelist of KI’s critics within the wider FGC and implemented them, we would have
No breaker system;
No safe forward-traveling unreactables (e.g. wind kick);
No half-screen command grabs;
No trap-grappling (Glacius, Kan-Ra);
No assist-driven archetypes;
No projectile rushdown;
No powerline;
Substantially reduced frame trap pressure;
Less resource- or assist-based combat designs;
Less archetypal hybrids in general (to quell complaints that certain characters have “too many tools”);
etc.
KI as the prevalent wave of criticism decrees would clamp down on anything deemed “YOLO” and refocus the neutral on footsies driven by close-to-midrange space control with normals and whiff-punishing and other elements deemed to be a part of “honest play”.
PaulB probably doesn’t want all of these things, but he’s on the record advocating for at least half of it. Some people have taken issue with the maxim that “if you don’t like it, you can always move on to a different game,” but if you’re calling for more of the above than not, you should be seriously asking whether your interest in KI runs only skin-deep, because at its core KI is that game where the offense is disgusting and the opening isn’t the final word. KI is oppressive screen-crossing moves that aren’t YOLO precisely because they’re safe or difficult to defend against or both. If you’re asking for enough of the above stuff, you’re asking to play Street Fighter – a game that exists in many popular incarnations right now, so you should leave those of us who really want to explore the implications of the unique, oppressive, high-power archetypes of KI to our devices and stop trying to take that away from us.
Not every game has to be for you. If KI is stagnating in popularity among the wider FGC simply because it isn’t mechanically a clone of SF (a claim I’m still not convinced of, by-the-by), then so be it. Plenty of people believe what is here has merit, and KI can grow its own community among people newcomers who agree, as any new and unique recreation does. This has been happening already.
[quote=“ZDhome, post:26, topic:12527”]You guys are going WAY TO DEEP into specifics …
Every point needs to be listened to, instead of being torn apart with excuses about why their opinion isn’t 100% justified.
[/quote]
You’ll note that the points were listened to in order to be picked apart. That’s how discussion works: it’s not a lecture that ends with a call to action on the things that a few notable people want done, it’s an interactive process where points get evaluated on their merit.
Your whole post is way off base. I don’t advocate for a single thing on your list. I only advocate for a relatively balanced risk/reward ratio across the cast.
For example, Fulgore’s overhead is 19 frames and can be canceled into a 2-hitting low special that is currently (until the next patch) +2 on block. You can’t shadow counter it because Fulgore can pip cancel to DP.
Wulf’s overhead is 18 frames and is punishable on block.
I don’t know how to justify this difference. Stuff like this bothers me. These are the types of things I advocate for. Please don’t misquote or misrepresent my opinions.
Also, there are plenty of almost-full-screen safe moves in SF, so your’e making odd comparisons. Seems like you’re not familiar with what that game is about.
I’ve also seen this “Certain people want KI to be SF” argument, and it really makes no sense. Literally no one is asking for that.
Are you sure about that? I’ll have to see if a recording of that lengthy season 2 stream you did still exists, in which you basically eviscerated the game. I took some notes from it intending on responding to it at the time, but never got around to it.
The half of the list I take you as lining up with is:
No breaker system (“people don’t want to play the counter breaker game”, preference of S1 manuals over IGs restrictions, desire to eliminate guess breaking from the game via some mechanism);
No trap-grappling (calling Glacius’s unblockable shatter and associated setups unfair/overwhelming, all sorts of things about Kan-Ra, this post);
No assist-driven archetypes (again, this post generally leans in that direction);
No powerline (are you really going to argue that you haven’t called powerline ■■■■■■■■■ over and over again?);
To some extent: less archetypal hybrids in general (you’re holding up UD’s tweets as gospel, as he expressed frustration with gargos having too many tools).
I also took down some bullet points from you lamenting a lack of traditional footsies in the video – again I’d have to see it again to really figure out what you were saying. I think things you’ve said before dabble into the other points, but I’m more concerned with the overall message which has seemed to be that you want the offense in KI toned down drastically so that honest play can prevail.
People can change their minds about things, of course. If what you’re saying is that the things you said before are no longer representative of where you stand, then okay.
You weren’t the primary target of my post regardless. I still think that the people in the wider FGC who have spoken up in criticism of KI’s mechanics, who @ZDhome wants us to care about the opinions of lest our competitive scene slowly fades into irrelevance, are pushing for the items on that list. I see it here, on other forums, in comments sections, in chats, etc. When competitive-minded players talk about what turns them off of the game, it’s usually a big chunk of that list, and it reeks of wanting to think of KI in SF terms.
Other people can speak to their rationale behind wanting Wulf’s overhead to be reactable and unsafe, the overall message seemed to be that Wulf’s other tools at that range are far too strong taken as a whole for his overhead to be safe or unreactable. I had this argument with Infil earlier in the year, e.g. here.
Personally I still kinda think Wulf’s overhead should be unreactable. That might not even be a thought you agree with, based on what I gleaned from your video. I probably wouldn’t mind it being safe instead, but that’s definitely my second choice.
If you’re saying that Fulgore’s overhead should be weaker, I disagree. An iconic part of KI is strong overheads that lead to real damage, and I wouldn’t have it any other way. If you’re saying that something needs to be done about Fulgore beating shadow counters with pip cancels, I think that can’t be considered in isolation – you need to think about Fulgore’s meter management overall, how a combination of pip cancels, the way he generates meter, and a lack of meter overall tend to shut off options like projectile-invulnerable moves and shadow counters that other characters have access to. I suspect it balances out, but Fulgore is a complex character, so I don’t know.
Do you have any examples? I mean e.g. something like a wind kick that you have to block pre-emptively and that leads to good damage. It looks like Ken can do something like that with V-trigger tatsu, and man were people complaining about it!
I’m also thinking of stuff like Wulf threatening a midscreen high-low mixup, Thunder having an unreactable midscreen command grab, TJ being able to go in with armored powerline or mix it up with shoot toss, etc. The midscreen is far more contested in KI than it is in SF, in fact that’s one of the points Infil attests to so well in his guide.
I’ve flipped the script before and lamented out in the open that I couldn’t have a SF character with strong frame trap pressure and a wind kick-like move to oppress the midscreen, and people have responded that that’s not street fighter and isn’t the game they want to play. If you can point me to a SFV character who does these things, maybe I’ll pick that game up!
Someone who know well fighting games likes “simple” characters and dont like the ones with most tools, namely Gargos.
The point is that he actually doesn’t play often, and what seems to be free damage or setups for arby or gargos has a counter.
IMO UD opinions are good to hear, but maybe his lack of knowlege of the game doesn’t help him to understand WHY the characters have X tools. Good to see him talking about KI, and I would gladly discuss him why I belive he isn’t looking at the big picture
@llPaulBll, about your point on Fulgore overhead, you are right, on paper seems odd. But:
-Wulfs overhead its a special, so you can cancel it from a low normal. Fulgore cant cancel any normal into overhead.
-Wulfs overhead has more range
-Wulf gets meter when blocked. Fulgore doesn’t
All these factors (and more) should be looked to balance this, not only frame data and follow ups.
MAYBE Fulgore needs one adjustment in this area. But I see why wulf its unsafe and Fulgore can be made safe.
I don’t want to get into this too much, but will say a few quick things:
It’s disingenuous to just say “Fulgore has a 19f overhead that’s safe, Wulf has 18f that is unsafe, this is unfair” because it’s not the full package. Wulf also has Overpower, perhaps the best space control normal in the game (and it’s a normal, not a special like Blade Dash, so it can be special canceled), and Wulf’s overhead/low mixup comes from way farther out than Fulgore. He also covers space in a way that is more effective than Fulgore at some ranges (fast crossup dash + air dive kick for positioning). Maybe you think Wulf still needs unreactable and/or safe overheads because this isn’t enough… okay. But you have to talk about the toolsets as a whole, not just isolate one move, compare it to another kinda-similar-but-not-really move from another character, and say “these don’t line up”.
Ultradavid is allowed to criticize KI as much as he wants (as is everyone). The difference is that he is doing it respectfully (no threats/insults against players or developers), nor is he doing it hoping to stir up some great revolution. He’s just a guy talking on twitter about things he likes and things he doesn’t like. To the person earlier in the thread that says David hasn’t ever said anything nice about KI, that’s not true at all. He has talked about things he’s liked in the game in numerous past tweets and during his streams/youtube commentaries. I think it’s cool he likes the game even a little bit, because in the past (ie, before the PC release and before he played it), he’s been a critic of the breaker system and I thought it would always block his enjoyment of the game. So if he’s able to enjoy parts of the game and get into it a bit, great! Trying to weaponize his tweets to power some movement about how “the game needs to change” is unfair to the community, and to be honest, also unfair to Ultradavid.
well this has exploded over a simple tweet. from what i gather, hes just criticizing gameplay off certain characters he probably feels are detrimental to the enjoyment of the game and its overall health. thats it, big deal guys lol.
hes probably speaking in regards to get players and retain players. insane mechanics are a tough thing to endure when learning a game, especially when you switch from a game where you are consistently able to body people. then, you switch to KI and now you’re back at stage 1. its tough man, but a fun game makes it easier. if he enjoys KI awesome, good for him who cares. if he doesnt, who cares, do you enjoy KI? have a nice day folks
Again, you’re making stuff up. I never said “NO” to these things. I have said these mechanics need slight adjustment to alter their risk/reward ratio. But never once did I say “no” to them, as if to suggest they should be removed from the game.
Seriously, is it impossible for you people to have a discussion without slinging ad-hominem?
Also, I never used the word “unfair,” so why the hell did you put that in quotes?
Anyway, you missed a whole boat load of strength on the Fulgore side. The most obvious being his projectile-teleport → overhead game. That’s way better than any high-low threat Wulf has.
Then how about you offer some ideas for how you think the risk/reward could be better on these mechanics?
The forums are for expressing your ideas so that IG/MS can hear them and maybe accommodate. You haven’t really been doing that, moreso expressing opinions without giving us a reason to support them.
If your intention (as the OP) when making this thread was to start a discussion about high-level/experienced players’ opinions regarding KI and specific characters/movesets, it’s not offtopic.
Besides, I believe both your position and the general discussion of the thread would be improved by more specific details and elaboration on your part. Many specific points others have made or questions they have asked have gone relatively unanswered or ignored.
It’s not really, though, so long as they can be expressed within the context of David’s tweets… so maybe…?
It’s not really ad hominem to say using someone else’s opinion out of context to elevate the gravity of your own is disingenuous. If that IS what you were doing, that is indeed disingenuous, and that’s on you to live with as an individual. You’ve said a few times that that ISN’T what you were doing, so EVERYONE LETS KEEP IT IMPERSONAL PLEASE!
But really, @llPaulBll, join in the conversation! I get that you’re digging this whole mysterious facilitator thing, but I think we’d all benefit from your invested participation! Really, share your thoughts in detail, the hows and the whys, and engage the community in some deeper discourse! It’s practically guaranteed to yield more worthy conversation than the mess we started with here, and more in line with all of our mutual interest. We need less reasons to try to help people understand the value of rational discourse, and more discussion on the state of the game and it’s mechanics.
EVERYONE REMEMBER ITS OKAY TO THINK AND FEEL AND HAVE OPINIONS - but understand that the conversation shouldn’t end with our feelings. Those are the catalyst TO the conversation! It’s okay to hear people out and maybe your opinion will adjust with more data, may you’ll adjust someone’s opinion with your own information, but we need to be SHARING INFORMATION, not just barking at each other. We’ve got the grittiest system mechanics on block, let’s get in there!
@llPaulBll I really enjoyed that rant you had when you were taking the S2 survey, because you explained your problems and came up with a few suggestions. I actually agreed with most of the stuff you said. So I’d be happy to see to you make a thread on the forums like that.
The more we know about how a player feels, the better we can accommodate them.
