The Replay and Analysis Thread

Call me inspired. I am blatantly trying to copy all your moves like a Gargos mimic :smile:

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Some advice I have for Storm is to not always input heavy influence linker after you hold an auto-double. This is bad behavior for two reasons: 1) it is pretty predictable long term if your opponent chooses to not participate in the binary counter break choice on a windup double (they can wait and break a heavy linker with high consistency), but more importantly, 2) it is the worst way to capitalize on a lockout, which I suspect is the reason you are holding the double in the first place.

My main advice would be to simply do wind-up heavy AD and input light rekka linker, because your lockout confirms will hurt probably 5-8% more for free (in fact, I think you can/should go to training and science this very specific confirm for maximal damage, because the lockout comes at a very specific time every time; like a counter-breaker, there is no guesswork and your punish can be provably maximal if you want). But yeah, since your strategy is to earn some lockouts based on windup doubles, you should be looking to transition out of that bait with the fastest possible combo. I donā€™t think the heavy influence linker accomplishes anything of value there, since presumably you have either been broken OR earned a lockout by that point.

Here, I helped you with that:

Consider 16:46 in your Riptor vid. Notice how he locks out on roughly what would have been the uncharged hit. With this very common timing, instead of heavy influence ā†’ HP ā†’ light rekka ā†’ ender, you can do light rekka ā†’ HP ā†’ light rekka ā†’ MP. With influence ender, this gets 44% instead of 38% (damage ender is 50%). If you want to spend a bar, you can do shadow damage ender for 56%, or light rekka ā†’ HP ā†’ shadow rekka ā†’ damage ender for 55%ā€¦ I think I recommend this last way, because you get corner push + can still choose your ender + it is guaranteed to build level 4 and not be breakable even if they locked out a little earlier.

A ranked match that left me salty. @deltarayquaza, and any other knowledgeable Eyedol/Sadira players

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBV2LlyXPdg&list=PLe64Vlr5UGRNnQnWEzhQKgSfNiyNZ1eb-

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Nice catch, and thanks for doing the damage calculations as well! The HP influence linker is something different I started doing after wind ups because I found that people tend to guess light linker after they let you ā€œget awayā€ with something thatā€™s wildly reactable, but youā€™re definitely right that in the event of a lockout Iā€™m giving up a lot of damage by doing that.

Iā€™ll have to think about what I want to do on that a bit. Iā€™m not actually attempting to get a lockout on a lot of wind up doubles; oftentimes I just want to scare them into leaving it alone (people are really afraid of counters on them for some reason). In those cases where they let them rock, Iā€™ve found light linker is a pretty popular guess break choice, so thatā€™s where the shift to heavy linker came from. I should probably get more intentional about when Iā€™m looking for lockout damage and when I want to just slide a higher damage wind-up in there though, and plan my follow-up accordingly. At the very least, I should probably follow it up with mediums instead of heavy, as I can probably get at least a little extra out of that in the event of the lockout.

As always, thanks for the feedback. Iā€™ll try and work on that :slight_smile:

Your reasoning is fair, though yeah I would recommend medium rekka linker instead of heavy then. You will probably give up a good chunk though, since her M linkers are a lot slower than light rekka and you probably have to give up a whole auto-double at the end of the chain (which means you donā€™t get level 4).

But that also begs the question, canā€™t you just confirm a lockout and do light rekka, or confirm no break attempt and do your M/H linker? You have a decent amount of time during the charge to see this and I think you can cancel into linker late as well. Since the entire game kinda pauses for a good 2 seconds here, you can sort of clear your mind and watch the confirm closely, I would guess. If he locks out suuuuper close to the delayed 2nd hit, you might not confirm a light linker, but I donā€™t think this is very common? Most of the lockouts on these come in the middle, where the non-delayed 2nd hit would have been. If someone sees a delay and still locks out somehow, then they arenā€™t very good and you can do your M/H linker non-confirm as before, take your 6-8% less damage, and just beat them in neutral later.

But yeah, this is my general feedback for the Riptor set. Your strategy is not bad by any stretch, but it didnā€™t match up with what was happening on the screen (meaning, you were attempting to instill fear, but what was really happening was just a bunch of lockouts). I wouldnā€™t expect you to notice this during matches (itā€™s possible but pretty hard), but itā€™s something you can analyze after the fact; look at certain specific gameplans and see what the true effects of your actions are, as opposed to what your intended effects were.

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Not much I can see wrong about your play , you baited dps , good pressure and mixups . I would advise you to play more patient and avoid predictability with your jumps , flipouts ect. A good eyedol will punish your jump-ins . The mu is hard but you seemed to do well against this eyedol player. Also always block low when eyedols in instinct . If he goes for the overhead , block and use your projectile invincible move. I could write a whole theses on that eyedol player but ill save it

I am the Eyedol player. lol. The point of this thread is for you to expound your thesis.

I, uh, do believe he was the Eyedol player, asking for advice in the Sadira matchup.

< awkwardly shuffles out of thread >

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Ahh ā– ā– ā– ā–  , my apologies. right so the one thing you didnā€™t do was anti air . You woke up dp 5/7 times and the sadira either stuffed it or blocked. You got to work on your wake up game , you dont always have to do a move on wakeup , just block . I would also recommend organising sets with sadira players to understand her blockstrings and mix ups. The main problem I see with your eyedol is you did not utilised his instinct. Learn some combos , practice low high mix ups and zoning. You also didnā€™t build resources for the mage or warrior variation. These resources are vital in keeping pressure and preventing sadira from getting momentum. One thing I say to all eyedol players is pratice with mage stance. Most players ignore mages tools and just spam low electricity and teleport. You just got to practice your hit confirms and your ground game . I would recommend looking at ua bass channel as he does have some sets against other eyedol players . You can hit me up for a set whenever im available , gt delta rayquaza. The main thing you need to do is practice mage and instinct combos. The sadira mu is super easy once you know what to do.

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Thatā€™s actually a really good idea, and one I hadnā€™t thought of. Thereā€™s enough hitstun on the wind-up double that I probably could confirm the appropriate linker on reaction. There might even be enough to test out just straight up doing a delayed linker, which would give me the benefit of an extra lockout window and let me rely more heavily on the light rekka linker.

Consider me inspired. To the lab!

Last point on the sadira mu , just some of eyedols tools I would recommend using : mage fourm : standing hp in ground lightning , jumping hp and heavy meator on HIS wakeup. I wouldnā€™t recommend using medium lightning as its unreliable in most cases . If she does a heavy web strike , you can punish it with teleport before she hits the ground . Warrior fourm : jumping hp is good if sadira goes for an anti air on the ground as most of the time it trades in your favour. Use jumping mk for air to airs and combo after . Again if she does heavy airstrike punish with light dp . Instinct : combine both tools to keep her out . Back mp is only goid if you get the read. Ex dp works great at full screen and you can teleport or use light ground lightning to create a low / cross up mixup .

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NO! BAD DELTA! AND I JUST WATCHED THAT SLICK HIGHLIGHT REEL, TOO! WTF MAN!? kappa :stuck_out_tongue:

All reversal timings for Teleport can be blocked and punished. As Mage you should be getting a full juggle into Teleport out of a blocked H.Kunai, not just a gimmicky crossup they failed to block in time:

cr.HP x M.Bolt>M.Bolt>Teleport is your Mage H.Kunai punish.

Proximity depending, you may have to forego the second Bolt to guarantee your Teleport pip. If youā€™re feeling greedy or think you know their wakeup tendencies well enough to exploit them, try:

cr.HP x M.Meteor for a meaty OH setup, or
cr.HP ~ L.Bolt for a meaty low. You donā€™t want to cancel this string unless cr.HP hits almost impossibly low to the ground.

Spacing it is sort of difficult in Warrior. You can always just L.DP her face thru the Kunai, but upon having to block it,

brun>M.DP>juggle[/b] gets that juicy punish notifier and sets you loose, KV be your oyster.

@NashBlade

Otherwise, your AAā€™s were hella lacking. Eyedol should be seriously discouraging aerial approaches, and not just by anxiously tossing out 3 consecutive M.Bolts from fullscreen. Mage cr.HP is enormous, cancellable and virtually risk free, in addition to H.Boltā€™s crossup protection; Warrior has an invincible DP, a still significant cr.HP, and a run to adjust spacing. The only reason a person should jump at you is because their character just canā€™t help it.

Try not to just throw out random raw Meteors, especially at the cost of your INSX timer - they are so slow that unless backed by immense blockstun or a knockdown, theyā€™re just gonna get you hit.

On a similar note, follow up on your INSX EX.DP meteor rain! In game 1 you hit w/ Meteorain, and whiffed a jumping button. Even if that was just an execution error, Iā€™d spend some lab time w/ that one - itā€™s too important a chokepoint to be fumbling followups, especially when youā€™ve an eternity to prepare.

Game Two:
Try not to letā€™em into your head and fluster you. You got this.

Jump should not be your primary movement option. Jump is a commitment to a period wherein you cannot block, you should take that commitment a little more seriously. Iā€™m not sure I saw you try to reposition on the ground at all this game.

Block should be your primary wakeup option. You have other options, yes, but that doesnā€™t make them good options, as we saw here. You should also be paying attention to what your opponent is saying w/ their actions. About halfway through her first meal of game 2, Sadira told you that she had several answers to wakeup DP, including tagging itā€™s recovery w/ crossups because of the lack of autocorrect (itā€™s not a real DP, afterall). This was a message to stop waking up w/ DP, but you didnā€™t hear it. Relative to this matchup, backdash on wakeup (hopefully into a landing punish of a sort) can send a powerful message, or at least get you out of that wakeup pressure once or twice.

Perhaps the only good DP wakeup of the set came toward the end of game 2, you popped INSX into DP, juggled another w/ the meteor bounce, and just let her stand back up for free despite being stocked on resources. You shouldā€™ve at least cashed out that bit into Meteorain or followed a juggle path to Recap>Splat>Grab to set up your corner game. Be aware of your resources.

That brings us to the end of game 2, where you gave up your corner play and died because you jumped after a Grab in the corner - unless it was an execution error, there is virtually no reason to jump here. Your options are meaty cr.MKxx, OH/recap, Grab, throw, block or DP. Correctly timing a cr.MK will beat hold-up-to-jump attempts just as well as OH or DP, but give you a lower KV start to a grounded combo thanks to pre-jump frames. I just donā€™t understand the jf.MK partā€¦ panic maybe? I do crazy stuff cuz my brain is melting too sometimes (okay, well, like, all the time), so I understand thatā€¦ itā€™s just not good. Donā€™t do that. Donā€™t melt under pressure. Lol.

Hope it was helpful!

I mean, I havenā€™t been studying Eyedol. :sweat_smile:

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Kappa

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Good call @Infilament on hit confirming the windup double follow-up - thereā€™s more than enough time to see if they locked out before you input your next linker. Iā€™ll work on incorporating that more fully into my game. :slight_smile:

This is the best match Iā€™ve had in a while, Iā€™m quite scrubby but this was a good, even fight for me.

Iā€™m thinking I might be spacing myself wrong, but I donā€™t feel safe at Thunderā€™s optimum range on my enemyā€™s wakeup. I may also be overusing J.HP as an engage.

I just watched the first match (canā€™t go for the remaining ones right now),but I can share some input now:

If you havenā€™t read this, go for it: http://ki.infil.net/thunder.html
Also I would encourage you to read the full guide. @Infilament, one of the most helpful members of this community, created this to help anyone who wants to start playing KI or wants to improve

-General approach: Thunderā€™s jump is floaty and easily punishable. You should only jump for safe jumps, avoid attacks (like command throws or Glacius shatter) and other very concrete moments. To navigate zoning, you shoud use Sammamish and Skyfall follow ups. Never use CotS (PPP) from close range, you did it a couple of times and was punished for it. Do it after a shadow CotE, for example

-Combo starters: you started several combos from light hit confirms. This makes your combos not very damaging. The first hit of any combo deals a 200% increased damage, so you would prefer a heavy over a light to start a combo. More damage here also makes easier to achieve higher enders levels

-Combo conversion: You should get better damage conversion from a lockdown.
In the link I sent you before you will find the optimal punish for this situations. Long story short, you want to use fast linkers (light anckle slicer) and heavy autodoubles)

I will continue later

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Iā€™m watching this video now, and Iā€™m just going to write my ā€œstream of consciousnessā€ thoughts as I go, so I apologize if it gets long or if it comes off as condescending in any way; I am not much of a teacher in this manner. Timestamps will be based on the video, not the match timer.

@Dayv0 Iā€™m likely going to step on the toes of your above post, so forgive me for that.

As a background, I consider myself to be a decent player (there are tons of better players here on the forums) and Thunder is my first (and still best) main.

0:23 - As Thunder you want to be aggressive with your opening moments, and move in as close to the opponent as possible. I recommend walking forward or doing a forward dash or two instead of jumping back.

0:24-0:30 - Jumping HP is really good, and you were able to open a combo here; your opponent locked out immediately (mashing break I assume), and you continued the combo with all mediums during the lockout, and then the combo blew out during H Triplax linker. Because a lockout prevents the opponent from breaking at all, go for heavy auto doubles and light linkers during a lockout since it will let you maximize the amount of damage during that time.

0:34 good job using back throw (which opens a combo, and allowed you to cash out the potential damage still on Riptor) and confirming into a combo. Riptor did not mash break this time, but your combo was all Mediums again, so just be careful of being too predictable with button strengths. I think I wouldā€™ve gone for the Ankle Slicer ender instead of COTE so that I could cash out and gain a ton of Shadow meter; I donā€™t think COTE was a bad option, but Thunder really wants meter since he has some really good Shadow specials, and you would have received a large amount from this combo since the combo level was high (four pips).

0:38 Backdash got you out of range for Riptorā€™s wakeup, but you also could have pressured her wakeup with standing LK, standing HP, Ankle Slicer or the :arrow_forward: HP Horn Breaker overhead, as well as a raw Call of the Earth command grab. Thunder wants to threaten with both attacks and his command grab so that the opponent doesnā€™t feel safe blocking (get hit by the command grab) or moving/attacking (and getting hit by your attacks).

0:40 Crouching MK here (Iā€™m pretty sure it was MK) landed, but you didnā€™t confirm into a combo. Using Ankle Slicer or Triplax would have let you turn that tap into a combo. Instead, you ended up using Call Of Sky (which is definitely unsafe up close) and Riptor opened you up instead. On wakeup, you still had the COS buff on you, and could have used it to dash through Riptorā€™s flame to land a hit/combo.(I believe)

0:50 Youā€™re definitely jumping a lot, and as @Dayv0 mentioned Thunderā€™s jump can be punished. With time and practice youā€™ll start to get more used to when and where you should jump.

0:54 Shadow COTE is a great tool, and you were at a decent range for it, but Riptor happened to jump just before you triggered it. Not a bad decision, it just didnā€™t work out.

0:58 Riptor pressured your wakeup with HP fire, and you got hit because you werenā€™t blocking. Youā€™ll benefit from training yourself to block on wakeup; itā€™s not a Thunder specific issue, but I admit it was a big problem for me originally.

1:05-1:12 What these two combo breakers tell me is that this person is mashing light breakers. Since heā€™s mashing and is focusing on light, this is a good opportunity to either make sure youā€™re using mediums and heavys (which will force a lockout) or adding in some counter breakers to capitalize on their mash breaking, as lockouts can lead to big damage.

1:21 You opened Riptor up, confirmed with light Triplax but then immediately ended the combo; this is not only pretty inefficient for damage but itā€™s an opener-ender, which is guaranteed breakable with HP-HK. Your opponent didnā€™t break, but someone who is more experienced will most likely break that combo.

1:23 The same notes for :38 apply here instead of jump -> HP.

1:27 More light mashing from Riptor.

1:31 On wakeup, either blocking or dashing past Riptor would have probably been the best options. Cr LP might have jabbed out of pressure, but there was definitely no way that your command grab was going to beat the (I think meaty) HP flame here. Were you mashing light breakers, or going for the throw specifically? Throws are decent chunks of damage (and it was all you needed here), but you want to train yourself to maximize punish opportunities by going for combos whenever possible. Iā€™m still working on this myself, to be honest.

1:44 COTE has no projectile invincibility, so that command grab attempt was destined for a stuffing! Ideally, block the fire and then punish here.

1:48 You successfully baited a lockout by confirming this combo with Mediums instead of lights; again, Riptor mashed LP-LK. You can see the Riptor playerā€™s habits becoming more clear as this match goes on. Unfortunately, you didnā€™t continue this combo further, because it could have led to a much larger chunk of damage than 16% if you had built up to a higher Ender level.

1:54 Good COTE pressure on wakeup, but why the backdash? You had no reason not to stay close and apply pressure on Riptorā€™s wakeup, in my opinion.

2:00 As before, blocking or jabbing on wakeup are much better options in this situation instead of using Call of Sky, and Riptor hurt you for it; good job breaking though.

2:06 - 2:08 see the note from 1:44. Iā€™m watching this at half speed, but I think you couldā€™ve seen Riptorā€™s HP coming out before triggering Shadow COTE. When you jumped over, Riptor was already spamming fire; since you hadnā€™t attacked while in the air, you could have held block (in the new direction after the crossup) to prevent getting hit by the fire.

2:30 - 2:39 This time, Riptor broke your first opener-ender combo, and you got away with another right after. Youā€™ll get better at avoiding this stuff over time but these were very inefficient and dangerous combos. Thunder is scary and his combos can add up pretty large so once you open a combo you want to take advantage of it.

2:42 I think this was an opener-ender from Riptor. Break them with HP-HK.

2:44 Pretty sure you could have opened Riptor up after that Cr HP hit. Again, you get used to this stuff.

2:48 Tiny combo.

2:50 Opened with back throw, but confirmed with lights; this means that the KV meter will build up very fast and your combo strength will be limited. Lockout was good, and by burning a bar you were able to get up to a level 3 ender, but it wasnā€™t enough to kill. I believe you would have picked up more damage (and ended the round) by using the bar for Shadow COTE (in the exact same spot in the combo as Shadow Triplax) to end the combo. Itā€™s always better to spend the bar in a way that maximizes damage, particularly if you can finish a round. This allowed Riptor to take another 22% chunk of your life away before you finished her first bar.

3:13- 3:18 You dashed close to Riptor between rounds, but then backed away from her. You want to be close with Thunder, so take advantage of these opportunities to place yourself close ā€œfor free.ā€ Riptor tagged you when your jump in landed and you lost 23%, but if you had stayed close to her you could have been the aggressor.

3:21 good job landing Ankle Slicer and opening the combo; again, bigger combos = bigger damage.

Iā€™m stopping here since I know this is getting long, but I hopefully these notes will prove useful. Thunderā€™s DP (Sammamish) and its followup attacks are very useful, so I would also recommend working it into your routine. Itā€™s good for approaching as well as anti-airing opponents. The light version of Sammamish is still good on wakeup (I believe) and the Shadow version is fully invincible.

Overall I think you would do well by focusing on improving your spacing, combo structure/counter breakers, maximizing damage during lockouts and working on your defensive game with blocking, combo breaking, and proper punishes.

Over time all this stuff will become easier/more natural, so just keep working on it. Learn how each character plays and how Thunder needs to respectively attack or defend against each of them, and learn to read your opponentā€™s habits and strategies so you can capitalize against the specific person, as well. Start asking to play some matches against people from the forums (or elsewhere) who are willing to work with you and help teach you, because players with more experience than you (whether they play Thunder or not) can be an incredible font of knowledge. Welcome to the KI community!

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There are some quintessential aspects of FGā€™s you seem to be missing out on, specifically okizeme (typically shortened to ā€œokiā€), the knockdown game. Essentially, you donā€™t want to let the opponent stand up for free - the knockdown is your opportunity to exert control over the board state (to borrow a term from tabletop). By timing a strike or grab to coincide w/ the first frame your opponent regains control of their character (this is referred to as ā€œmeatyā€), you are forcing them to make a decision w/in a set of options that YOU have limited and planned against - if they choose wrong, they get hit and you continue your offensive turn. Think of your KD opportunities as a resource. As Thunder, you can spend a knockdown on a meaty strike (which forces them to block or reversal), meaty Grab (which forces jump or reversal), or [3P] to charge a teleport. The hard part is correct timing, which is just a matter of practice and tech-talk w/ fellow Thunder players (of which I am not).

The defenders options arenā€™t truly binary as I described, but at lower levels you donā€™t really have to worry about backdash OSā€™ing and stuff, so I donā€™t want to overload you w/ stuff you can learn about as you go.

I did notice that Riptor wasnā€™t quickstanding likeā€¦ ever. Thatā€™ll get more rare as you play higher calibur players. I mention it because itā€™s best to devise meaties based on the most common outcome of a knockdown - if itā€™s a regular KD, they can quickstand, so itā€™s better to assume that they will, whereas with a hard knockdown (HKD) they cannot, and so you always have a fixed amount of time to set up your followup. This is why HKDā€™s are considered powerful.

For Thunder specific advice, it seems like Dayvo and Skeletal got you covered. I just noticed you take a step back on a knockdown and thought Iā€™d write you a tiny essay. I may add to this post, may not, so if I do Iā€™ll tag you. :smiley:

OH! HUGE THING! At the end of game 2, you connected a nj.HP into a button and tried to counterbreak, but the nj.HP triggered Danger! - I would recommend investing some time into practicing the two KI-specific confirms (in addition to hit confirms), Lockout!>Damage Loop and Danger!>Ultra (commonly referred to as ā€œOpener>Ultraā€ but that doesnā€™t always paint a complete picture). Sometimes, and you WILL experience this AT LEAST once, failure to confirm Danger into Ultra will let the opponent free and cost you a match. Practicing this most crucial of confirms will minimize those occasions. It didnā€™t kill you here, but it could have - and darn it, that Riptor should have mounted an epic comeback just so Iā€™d have a better illustration for this point. Remember that a majority of jumping buttons are Openers in KI, so nj.HP>Ultra would have worked. Donā€™t giveā€™em breakpoints if you donā€™t have to (opener>ultra is the only legal opener>ender string in KI, by the way, completely unbreakable).

Welcome aboard!

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Figured Iā€™d post this again in this thread, in case you guys want to discuss it.

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