Tendencies That Keep Us From Getting Better


#81

Yeah, I need to lab more as well I’m afraid. I only use it if I’m really pressured about a particular setup or if I’m trying to practice a new reset or setup of my own.

@GalacticGeek Glad you were able to check that out (and thanks to @Infilament for the lab assist). It seems I overestimated the speed of Aganos’ instant overhead options, but let’s think about things in terms of defendable options. 26 frames (or the 29f you measured) is reactable, but the thing for you to think about is whether it can be reacted to versus the other slew of options at your command.

Shatter is fully reactable (want to say 33f, but I’ve been wrong on every other move so probably off here too :joy:), and even puts a giant pillar of light underneath you before it hits, and yet people routinely get tagged by smart use of it. That’s because even reactable things become difficult to defend against once you push someone’s mental bandwidth beyond a certain point. Once you have a good mix of reactable/unreactable options to threaten with at a particular range, you put your opponent into a frame where he’s probably letting something through. If I’m thinking about reacting to overhead I’m probably not teching, if I’m looking to tech I’m not defending against frame traps, and if I’m blocking overheads, lows, and throw teching then I’m probably not pushing buttons to try and poke out. Every defensive option comes at some cost to my overall mental bandwidth, and your job on offense is to push that to the point that even reactable options catch me slipping.

An opponent who is throw teching your tick throw setups (LK->throw) is guessing, full stop. If he is guessing, then he can be made to guess wrong. If he techs that string twice, then next time do LK->jump+HP/HK and dunk him. Sure, he technically could have reacted to that, but he’s already shown that he has other defensive priorities. Against Aganos people are looking for the throw, because the throw is how Aganos gets his game started. Subvert their expectations and play against that fear, using options to beat attempted throw techs. Once you have a wall behind them and they’re afraid of jump+HK->wall splat, hit them with throws instead.

People defend based on what they’re afraid of at a given moment. Understand what people fear in the moment and hit them with the other option they’re not focused on.


#82

__Q:__What beats what in the air?

I ask because I frequently lose air-to-airs (for example, I often use j.LP, the defacto air-to-air, but it often loses to heavy attacks in the air which I thought were supposed to be slower).


#83

Well whatever hits first wins. If they did a jump.hp earlier than you and you did j.lp, they might hit you first. If they hit at the same time, follow the priority rules.


#84

Priority for air to airs is the same as priority on the ground. If they do a heavier attack and it actually comes out, it will beat your jumping light. If your light hits them before their attack becomes active though, then you’ll win.


#85

What beats heavies then?


#86

27f I believe, just slightly more reactable than aganos instant overhead.


#87

If in air, grounded attacks.


#88

If we are talking about Aganos, I would go for j.mk in close air to air situations, and when you have the proper spacing and timing, j.HP or j.HK

J.HK it’s a great button which serves very well to Aganos, and can be part of simple yet effective wake up preassure

J. MK its probably Aganos’ best jumping button, with decent hitbox and great for cross ups

J. HP it’s slow, but it can lead to a lot of dirty stuff if it lands late in Aganos’ jump. I would recomend it over the others when Aganos is jumping forward and your opponent backwards


#89

Lol. Yep, I’m done trying to say specific numbers for anything that’s not a Hisako command grab or cr.MK :joy:

Same priority rules as grounded. Air specials (most of them, not to include specifically low-priority moves like trailblazer) will beat air heavies, and air shadows will beat air specials.


#90

I don’t get what you’re trying to say here.


#91

Grounded attacks beat aerial attacks of the same strength.


#92

Attacks on the ground will generally beat out any air attack.


#93

I rarely use j.HK unless there’s a wall behind them, I’m working on using j.HP more effectively and often, and I use j.MP frequently asked of great affect, especially when crossing up.


#94

Oh. This part I already knew. Try to use better phrasing next time please.


#95

Summarizing:
Shadow > Special > Heavy > Medium > Light

If it’s airborne, then lower it one place

So Shadow >air Shadow = Special > Air Special = Heavy > Air Heavy = Medium > Air Medium = Light > Air light


#96

Best explanation yet! :grin:

It also explains why I’m always losing with j.LP and practically never see anyone use it. What makes it useful then, if it’s on the bottom of the totem pole?


#97

Because the priority system only comes at play when two active moves collide.

So if we both jump at the same time and I use a j.LP which has 5 startup frames, and you use a shadow move which has 55 startup frames, my light will beat your air shadow because yours can’t be out on time


#98

I also worry about hitbox size. Heavier attacks traditionally have larger hitboxes, which makes them even more likely to hit. Basically, as long as you can get the attack out early (or late for crossups) why would you ever use a j.LP/LK? I feel like the priority system should be circular, with j.LP/LK beating out air shadow moves, similar to how they often can on the ground.


#99

They’re useful for stuffing people that do slower moves. One use i use a lot is if i know my opponent likes to do a second jumping hp cross up after i block their first, and reversing my anti-air input is annoying, then i could just jump up with them and jab them out of it.


#100

Because in many situations you can’t get the attack out early. If I think you’re going to take to the air and jump up with a light and you do jump, you’re probably going to get tagged by it before any non-light button you try becomes active. Heavier attacks just take more time, and as a result often lose to faster options while they’re still in start up.

There is no “wheel” of priority on the ground either. The instances you’re talking about are a result of the light buttons simply coming out faster than the shadow move, and thus stuffing the attempted shadow before it becomes active. Which, incidentally, is also why you use light buttons in the air sometimes. The range and priority on a move don’t matter if I can stuff you before it comes out.