I never truly know if it’ll hit, though, so I don’t like cancelling into shadow moves for fear of the overhead getting blocked.
I can tell you from experience that unless you’re already in close, both the golem’s j.HP/j.HK are fully reactable.
@zdhome gave me some great advice the other day: he noticed I like to poke into tick throw, and suggested I use that to train my low-blocking opponent to hit them with a jumping overhead after the blocked pokes. I have yet to implement it though.
1 Like
Use Aganos close mp and cancel it into light payload assault for a fast high low.
You mean a fast overhead low. 
A good idea, but it’s often hard to keep the chunk or from getting thrown while getting in.
“Close” is an extremely relative word - close for Aganos’ jump buttons on the way up is pretty far actually. In terms of whether it’s reactable or not, I have some homework for you. Set up a versus match against a dummy, and then do 
+HP and +HK a few times against it. Finish out the match and then go to replays, turn on hitboxes, and watch a frame step of you doing those moves. I want you to count the number of frames between when Aganos’ throwable (blue) hurtbox disappears and your normal tags the dummy.
Let us know in this thread what those numbers are. I’d be very surprised if either of those moves done as instant overheads are any slower than 24 frames, which is the speed of a Jago overhead (I think? please correct me someone if I’m wrong).
EDIT: Aganos overhead->light payload is a overhead->mid block string from most ranges I’d think. The light payload doesn’t hit low as soon as it comes out, and the overhead is pretty short-ranged.
1 Like
Incoming “I don’t like homeork and replays are inaccurate post…” Jk. Well nvm then. Also instant jump. hp is barely reactable so opponent’s who are really defensive by blocking low will get hit by it.
You don’t have to cancel it into a shadow move, just cancel it into any special move. And even if for some reason you still don’t want to cancel it you can link a standing LK on reaction to the overhead hitting (0 chunks only.)
You’re right, and I knew that - I just temporarily forgot while correcting him. 
It can still be overhead-low with the correct spacing I think, but that’s a very tight space.
What would you guys think about Aganos standing overhead (not with peacemaker) causing a bounce against jumping opponents? Just a random thought I had…
@DescartesTruth is great at throwing in jumps that are hard do defend against. You should get with him about that.
1 Like
I’m already good at throws. If anything, I use them too much…
EDIT: NM. Read that wrong.
1 Like
I’m free to aganos throws. I always forget he has a command throw. Every time he uses the club to do a command throw, I say : HOW DID I FORGET ABOUT THAT EXISTING AGAIN?!
1 Like
Yeah, it amazes me how often I hit with that CG.
Have you gotten the chance to run that frame stepping experiment I suggested to you?
Not yet. I got home and my brother wanted me to watch shows with him, so I’m doing that 1st.
Jago’s overhead hits on frame 19.
I did Storm’s experiment, so I will let Geek know whether his answer is correct when he reports it.
2 Likes
Haha. This is why we ask questions 
1 Like
Okay, I estimated the following:
+HP is ~29 frames
+HK is ~28 frames
…both starting from the 1st frame without the blue box and ending the frame before the appearance of the yellow flash that indicates a hit confirm. This was performed with 0 chunks.
I was able to get 26f with 0 chunks so you might have pressed the button a little late after jumping. It’s possible even 26f is not the minimum, but I was pressing it as quick as I could. But anyway, the ballpark is right, which is fine for this type of estimation.
I would have to say my biggest weakness is I don’t do a lot of lab work, I just kinda go off of feel when I play. I suppose it in part is just how I’m wired. I have the same problem with music. I had a lot of trouble learning to read music, because I would memorize my work before I would learn how to read it. Now, I can peck out about any melody I can think of by ear on a keyboard, but not much else.
Same thing with KI. I don’t look at a lot of frame data, or know what a lot of FG lingo means (I’ve been slowly learning). Hell, I don’t know for certain what half of Gargos’s moves are called…and he’s one of my mains!! But I think other forum members would likely agree that despite this I’m no slouch…probably not top tier tournament quality mind you, but definitely deserving of my Killer rank.
…not that this is my only weakness…just my biggest.
Yeah, I need to lab more as well I’m afraid. I only use it if I’m really pressured about a particular setup or if I’m trying to practice a new reset or setup of my own.
@GalacticGeek Glad you were able to check that out (and thanks to @Infilament for the lab assist). It seems I overestimated the speed of Aganos’ instant overhead options, but let’s think about things in terms of defendable options. 26 frames (or the 29f you measured) is reactable, but the thing for you to think about is whether it can be reacted to versus the other slew of options at your command.
Shatter is fully reactable (want to say 33f, but I’ve been wrong on every other move so probably off here too 
), and even puts a giant pillar of light underneath you before it hits, and yet people routinely get tagged by smart use of it. That’s because even reactable things become difficult to defend against once you push someone’s mental bandwidth beyond a certain point. Once you have a good mix of reactable/unreactable options to threaten with at a particular range, you put your opponent into a frame where he’s probably letting something through. If I’m thinking about reacting to overhead I’m probably not teching, if I’m looking to tech I’m not defending against frame traps, and if I’m blocking overheads, lows, and throw teching then I’m probably not pushing buttons to try and poke out. Every defensive option comes at some cost to my overall mental bandwidth, and your job on offense is to push that to the point that even reactable options catch me slipping.
An opponent who is throw teching your tick throw setups (LK->throw) is guessing, full stop. If he is guessing, then he can be made to guess wrong. If he techs that string twice, then next time do LK->jump+HP/HK and dunk him. Sure, he technically could have reacted to that, but he’s already shown that he has other defensive priorities. Against Aganos people are looking for the throw, because the throw is how Aganos gets his game started. Subvert their expectations and play against that fear, using options to beat attempted throw techs. Once you have a wall behind them and they’re afraid of jump+HK->wall splat, hit them with throws instead.
People defend based on what they’re afraid of at a given moment. Understand what people fear in the moment and hit them with the other option they’re not focused on.
2 Likes