Do you mean in terms of general design philosophies? Or were you talking specifically about how the titles approach iteration from one game to the next?
What I meant was actually what I posted in the DOA forum on the focus in neutral play and then maximizing damage from subsequent combos etc. I’m just addled, lol.
Lol. Globe trotting will do that to you
For what it’s worth, I agreed with what you said there.
You know, a common complaint that I’ve heard a lot from the people that don’t like guest characters is that they “don’t follow the rules of Tekken”. What they don’t realize is that’s the point. They’re not Tekken characters and they have their own rules that transfer over from their own games, with Negan being debatable. That idea alone is what makes guest characters so cool.
To be fair, I think that can be a valid complaint. Lots of people feel similarly about Rash in KI, and while I tend to think it’s overblown, it is true that it’s annoying to have to deal with a character who feels like they can ignore the rules that everyone else in the cast has to follow.
It’s the strength of a guest character, but it can also be the weakness if the developer takes it too far. It’s fine for a guest character to break the game, but they do have to be reasonably bounded in how they break it.
For what it’s worth though I think Tekken has actually done a fantastic job of walking that line.
In terms of breaking the mechanics, most guest characters don’t actually do that very much. The devs balance and test for a reason. A guest character breaking the mechanics and being “overpowered” is just an excuse to ignore and mindlessly hate them instead of getting good at beating them like any other character. As for breaking the rules of the franchise lore and character design… I can see that argument being made for a couple of Tekken’s guests. But in general I think they just need to chill and realize that rules like that don’t really actually exist. Every character in any game exists entirely because they devs wanted to do it and thought it would be cool. There are no rules, those are all things we came up with to help with speculation/criticism. And it’s only a matter of time before every single one of those rules gets broken because creativity cannot function under strict regulation.
I don’t like fighting Rash. But does he really break more “rules” than other characters? Sadira has been “outside” KI since season 1 and Tusk can pretty easily take a whole life bar without ever entering combo state. Almost all fighting games with more than 8 characters have some that break the mold. People just get fixated on it when it’s guest characters.
I still don’t get why people complain about Rash and not Arbiter or RAAM. The KI developers spoke endlessly about how they loved battletoads and that was the place they’d get their first guest character from. Arbiter and RAAM were the corporate mandates. Why hate the passion project done out of love for the series, when you have two characters who literally exist in the game solely to advertise.
I know what you mean. It’s just when I see people say the words, “NOT TEKKEN,” it kinda just baffles me a bit because they clearly aren’t. I think they did a good job balancing them too. Especially getting them to fit with the button scheme.
Mostly because Arbiter and Raam are dark and menacing while Rash is goofy. The psychology of it is pretty amazing because I think Arbiter and Raam are just as exceptional in terms of gameplay. But people seethe when they get dunked by a cartoon amphibian with a dancing taunt.
I do remember people complaining about Arbiter, actually. Mostly his gun loop.
That’s a semantic argument I think. All rules are constructs, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist/are not enforceable. In KI the devs have mandated that all characters shall engage with the combo game to some extent, shall be able to shadow counter and be shadow countered, etc. just because a rule is a somewhat arbitrary construct doesn’t mean it therefore doesn’t exist. KI lets various characters avoid or complicate the rules in certain ways, but the core foundation is adhered to, and I think that’s to the benefit of the game. And as can be seen in the huge variety of characters and archetypes in the game, I think it’d be a serious lift to argue that adherence to an overall design vision stifled creativity.
I don’t know that Rash being a giant anthropomorphic frog helps his case, but I think it’s much less of a factor than you seem to. Rash doesn’t break many game systems (he’s got some hitbox things that are way outside their visual cues, which is super rare in KI), but he does complicate one of the core ones. He avoids the combo game better than most, and probably among the jugglers has the most difficult to spot in-air options. I think you pointing out Sadira as hated kind of adds to my point. Rash’s air mobility (in a game where 90% of the cast fights grounded) is felt as a particular character not playing the same game as the rest, and that’s where the anger comes from. Sadira was the same. Raam isn’t hated because he has to muck around in the dirt with the rest of us poor schlobs, and Arbiter was hated when he had jumping gun loops that did 40+% with a single completely ambiguous one-chance. It ultimately comes down to a player feeling like a character isn’t playing the same game as they are. Breaking core design philosophies (huge damage for one-chances) or giving incredibly strong movement options not available to the rest of the cast are two of the easiest ways to do that. Two characters who weren’t guests who were also hated for these reasons were S2 Maya (huge one-chance damage) and SC6 launch Azwel (who walked backwards faster than some character run).
Again, I do think the Rash hate is overblown. He complicates the game, but he does still play by the rules. I can understand why people dislike him though.
Don’t tell me that there’s a list of rules on a bulletin board in Namco’s office and Harada shoots down character ideas because “Sorry, violates a rule! Characters can’t do/be/come from X”. No. That doesn’t happen. The rules change once they want them too.
I’m not saying there aren’t rules of HOW THEY PLAY. I’m saying there aren’t rules to WHO THEY ARE. There isn’t a rule like “No Fireballs” “no people from South Korea” “guest characters can’t come from comic books”. The only rule that exists is “Don’t make a character that’s stupid broken”
I didn’t say there was.
That is what I was discussing, exclusively. People don’t complain about Geese, Noctis, Akuma, and Negan because they don’t look “Tekken-y” - they complain because they feel they impact the gameplay a certain way. The list of people who complain about franchise lore and aesthetics being broken tends to be pretty small. They exist for sure, but they do not make up anywhere near a majority of people complaining about guests in my experience.
The others, sure. But most of the complaints I read about Negan before his gameplay reveal were that he doesn’t belong in Tekken. Its amazing how people can mix up the feelings of “not working for me” and “not belonging in the game”.
Why is he so much taller than the other characters
Consider the fact that a lot of the characters have their knees bent when they fight. Also consider the fact that Jeffrey Dean Morgan is 6’ 2" in real life, which is taller than a good portion of the T7 roster.
I can understand that but… it’s just really weird for him to dwarf Akuma.
Akuma is actually pretty short. In Third Strike he was one of the smaller characters in the roster.
That feels… weird and wrong.
It’s just weird. Sure, he’s tall, but for his build he looks disproportionate compared to the rest of the cast.