Street Fighter V: Arcade Edition

[Infilament]

Because I’ve been tagged, I’ll just clarify that yes, in order to parry Chun’s super in 3rd Strike, you will be inputting the first parry before the super freeze. That’s why you see Daigo constantly jerk forward a bunch in the 2 or 3 seconds leading up to super, because he is guessing when Justin will do it. The fact that he catches it is actually pretty lucky (if we’re being honest) – it is easy to find tons of examples of people in high profile 3rd Strike matches who just get hit instead in the same situation.

The other option is to block the first hit and then red parry the 2nd hit (and parry the rest normally), but this is an order of magnitude harder and I don’t think Daigo had the health to block the first hit anyway.

As an aside, the Japanese have adopted “let’s go Justin” as a phrase to shout on commentary whenever someone parries a super, referencing the guy in the crowd who shouted that just before Daigo parried. I find this hilarious. Here’s an example: https://youtu.be/tGPk6hiEmHg?t=282

[Lulekani]

Meanwhile in other news… I took your guys advice and stopped holding back… I beat my Friend 20 - 1… and he loved it, I’ve never seen him be so enthusiastic to play.

But thats not the interesting part… whats interesting is After I introduced him to Karin and her Rekka things started getting weird.

Blocking the Overhead was easy since he kept using the Hard Punch version and I would automatically crouch block the follow ups… This lead to a sweet punish opportunity for me :). Now here’s where things got weird… after realising this he would Free Cancel her Rekka and just go for a Throw instead so I’m like : “Okay cool I’l just tech the throw.” And it worked… ONCE. The next time he did her Rekka he used the Throw Follow Up and since I have to stand up to tech I got hit by the throw follow up.

LoL… seriously… Karin’s Rekka throw is rubbish and yet some how that ■■■■■■■ managed to make it work.

Of course I now realise the first hit of that Rekka is Unsafe and I’ve lined up two Counters for it. I wana see if he can surprise me again.

[BigBadAndy]

@Lulekani

Blocking the Overhead was easy since he kept using the Hard Punch version and I would automatically crouch block the follow ups… This lead to a sweet punish opportunity for me :). Now here’s where things got weird… after realising this he would Free Cancel her Rekka and just go for a Throw instead so I’m like : “Okay cool I’l just tech the throw.” And it worked… ONCE. The next time he did her Rekka he used the Throw Follow Up and since I have to stand up to tech I got hit by the throw follow up.

LoL… seriously… Karin’s Rekka throw is rubbish and yet some how that ■■■■■■■ managed to make it work.

Of course I now realise the first hit of that Rekka is Unsafe and I’ve lined up two Counters for it. I wana see if he can surprise me again.

I just wanted to pull this out because it encapsulates very succinctly all the reasons I find joy in fighting games.

[Lulekani]

@BigBadAndy

I just wanted to pull this out because it encapsulates very succinctly all the reasons I find joy in fighting games.

Thats why I gotta counter that strategy… if I don’t he’l get bored and complacent. As long as I can keep him thinking about strategy then I can hold his Interest…

That being said… I should have researched that move before teaching it to him… I was just asking trouble. Luckily it didn’t cost me.

[STORM179]

@Lulekani

And it worked… ONCE. The next time he did her Rekka he used the Throw Follow Up and since I have to stand up to tech I got hit by the throw follow up.

If you just crouch block, the throw will whiff. Crouch blocking blows up all Karin’s post-ressenha options, as does simply crouch jabbing. In her true rekka string (V-trigger I), she has a counterhit option, but it hits mid and is unsafe.

@Lulekani

Grounded Special moves with upward motion inputs are prone to execution errors.

I guess I don’t know what to tell you then - KI has a ton of those too, just without the charge time requirement. Not incidentally, those are generally considered the game’s “easy” or “beginner” characters.

@Lulekani

I think he’s got one for every button and they are all rubbish for combos… thats what his Neutral Buttons are for… trying to Cancel into specials from those is so excruciatingly tight that I’ve only managed to do it once…

Then, humbly submitted, perhaps Guile as a character just isn’t for you? Not all characters are meant for everyone - Aria and Mira certainly can’t be played serviceably by everyone, ditto Aganos and Raam and a whole bunch of KI characters. SFV has a ton of characters with lower skill ceilings; I think it’s a mistake to take a single example of slight execution requirements in a cast with very few of them, and just drop it down to the same base level as everyone else. That’s just boring, and is one of the reasons why SFV S1 could be such a slog to watch. Everyone’s best combos were trivial both to execute and hit confirm, so every single player looked the exact same. Giving a character situational pickups allows for some creativity and spontaneity that just isn’t there if tools have no depth.

Again, I think a cast of characters who all require 11 different command normals is a bad idea. By the same token, however, a cast where no one has additional situational options also isn’t great. Variety is important.

@Lulekani

… perhaps they should have trying to come up with new moves for these characters rather than repurposing the old ones by putting them in Steroids.

Or, they could leave series staples with iconic moves that have existed for decades and instead create new characters with simpler inputs. Which they’ve done. Or they could increase leniency on certain difficult inputs for legacy characters, while still having them mostly stay true to their origins. Which they’ve also done.

Seriously, SFV has a ton of issues as a game and as a product - there are dozens of legitimate gripes with the title to bring to the table. “The inputs are too hard” just isn’t one of them in my opinion. You can do quite well in the game with pretty crap execution, because the vast majority of the cast has mashable combos that do 20-25% damage. If there are one or two characters that you can’t do that with (and Guile is not one of them, for the record), then I think that’s perfectly fine if only for variety’s sake.

[LetalisVenator]

Only character who has somewhat tricky execution in sf is ibuki really.

[Lulekani]

@STORM179

If you just crouch block, the throw will whiff.

It doesn’t… her neutral throw is definitely still with in range after the first Rekka. I tried walking back to make it wiff but I just get clipped by the Low Kick follow up.

@STORM179

as does simply crouch jabbing.

Right now my plan is to just Hold up after blocking the overhead and I’l land with a button that also Crosses Up in case she moves past me… this isn’t a true Punish but I wana see how he Reacts to it… if he figures out that Standing Fierce stops me from Jumping then I’l resort to the Jab punish…

@STORM179

KI has a ton of those too, just without the charge time requirement. Not incidentally, those are generally considered the game’s “easy” or “beginner” characters

Its never been an Issue in KI… I don’t know why though… Maybe KI has one more PreJump Frame… maybe the better input response time makes work more consistently… it could be anything.

@STORM179

Then, humbly submitted, perhaps Guile as a character just isn’t for you? Not all characters are meant for everyone

This applies to every character with a high execution barrier and honestly, its stupid. I personally don’t like Guile and his stupid hair cut but somebody else might and its unfair for that person. I’ve been through this in BlazBlue and Guilty Gear… when I first tried it I didn’t know who was easy or who was hard… I chose my characters based on initial impressions, in Guilty Gear this was Baiken and she was hard as hell… I just Dropped the game altogether. No point in continuing if the one character I like is unplayable.

@STORM179

SFV has a ton of characters with lower skill ceilings; I think it’s a mistake to take a single example of slight execution requirements in a cast with very few of them, and just drop it down to the same base level as everyone else.

Street Fighter V has about two or three Characters that are significantly easier than Guile… Ironically Ed isn’t one of Them all because of his Psycho Flicker.

Oh yes its certainly easier than Street Fighter IV but IV wasn’t hard… it was Straight Up impossible its single handledly the most unplayable Fighting Game I’ve ever come across… so going from that to SFV was basically going from Impossible to Extremely Difficult. That plus the keyboard controls are worse this time around…

@STORM179

That’s just boring, and is one of the reasons why SFV S1 could be such a slog to watch. Everyone’s best combos were trivial both to execute and hit confirm, so every single player looked the exact same.

Watching or Performing any combo is slog to because ultimately you’re watching someone fighting against the game rather than their opponent… making them harder doesn’t change that, it merely makes them happen less often since your preventing fewer players from doing them. If Capcom wants to add more variety then great !!! But if they’re just supercharging pre-existing moves and tethering them to inaccessible inputs then their just being lazy… and mean.

@STORM179

Again, I think a cast of characters who all require 11 different command normals is a bad idea. By the same token, however, a cast where no one has additional situational options also isn’t great. Variety is important

You make it sound as if you can’t have One without the other.

@STORM179

Or, they could leave series staples with iconic moves that have existed for decades and instead create new characters with simpler inputs.

Again… alternate or custom controls would be better. The anti-accessibilty players can set their controls to whatever complex input they want and everybody else can set them to something more sensible. I want to say everybody wins but I’ve been in the FGC long enough to know many veterans don’t care about new players… especially not in Street Fighter.

@STORM179

You can do quite well in the game with pretty crap execution, because the vast majority of the cast has mashable combos that do 20-25% damage.

Ofcourse you can… assuming everybody else you play against also has Crap Execution… but against someone whos get flawless Execution you will Suffer. Heres a really simple example… if you can’t DP then people can just keep jumping at you willy nilly, and starting your offense from a jump is really strong… now you can resort to some of your characters normals to Anti-Air with but the speed and priority on those are nothing compared to the good old Fashioned Dragon Punch… normals trade more often and sometimes they just straight up lose to some jumping attacks. Or Capcom could just get rid of the inpuf lag… that could remedy the problem.

If My friend doesn’t latch on to Street Fighter V then I have no reason to stick with it either. Its a constant exercise in frustration. Months and months in training mode with this game and all I have to show for it is an uncomfortable sensation in my left thumb and Index Finger…

[LetalisVenator]

@Lulekani

if you can’t DP then people can just keep jumping at you willy nilly, and starting your offense from a jump is really strong… now you can resort to some of your characters normals to Anti-Air with but the speed and priority on those are nothing compared to the good old Fashioned Dragon Punch… normals trade more often and sometimes they just straight up lose to some jumping attacks.

Only one of my characters have a dp And it’s not his dedicated aa (Ed). I don’t have much issue anti airing with either of them. Alot of characters got their normals buffed specifically for anti airing. In terms of execution sfv is among the easiest 2d fighter currently. King of fighters, skullgirls, blazblue, marvel all have harder execution. They actually did quite alot to make sfv easier than past entries.

[Lulekani]

For me it depends…

For example Sakura’s Jumping Hard Kick isn’t easy to anti-air since she hides her entire Body behind her foot… Dhalsim’s Drill Kick falls into this Cateor too but you’re not really intended to try and Anti-Air… its obviously way too strong for that.

What is Ed’s Anti-Air any way ? Is it Crouching Hard Punch ? Thats 5 or 6 Frames right ? I tried Anti-Airing with it only to get a Trade over and over Again… its obviously not slow but I don’t know why its not working.

[LetalisVenator]

Cr. Hp , st. mk, psycho rising are Ed’s anti airs. Aa psycho snatcher also works if you have a read on someone. Ed has pretty strong options for anti airs. Unless you’re playing Vega pretty much every character has at least one decent anti air. I main birdie and use ed Abigail and started learning FANG as well. I don’t get jumped in on often with either.

[Lulekani]

Ah yes… St. Mid Kick… forgot about that one… and really ? Psycho Rising ? It feels awfully slow.

I’m guessing Vega has Rubbish Anti-Airs because he’s the one whos suppose to be doing all the Jumping with his Flying Barcelona… which isn’t as good as Bison’s Head Stomp but still pretty good… Cammy doesn’t seem to struggle against it.

[LetalisVenator]

Thing about anti airing in street fighter, and alot of other fighters for that matter is anti airs aren’t as lenient as they are in ki. You have to be a bit more pre-emptive. Only times I really get trades is if I try to aa fairly late. Psycho rising is a very strong aa. But you can’t try to wait until the last second to do it. Or any aa really.

[Lulekani]

Yep… pretty much. I can’t Anti-Air anything reliably if I wasn’t expecting the jump…

[STORM179]

@Lulekani

It doesn’t… her neutral throw is definitely still with in range after the first Rekka. I tried walking back to make it wiff but I just get clipped by the Low Kick follow up.

What exactly are you defining as her rekka? The V-trigger string I assume then (when you said throw after I assumed you meant the command throw after overhead)? Either way the first hit is negative - if you block Karin flying at you or charging in, she’s negative and it isn’t her turn. She definitely doesn’t get to return to neutral and then throw.

@Lulekani

Ofcourse you can… assuming everybody else you play against also has Crap Execution… but against someone whos get flawless Execution you will Suffer. Heres a really simple example… if you can’t DP then people can just keep jumping at you willy nilly…

Except that most SFV characters don’t have DP’s in SFV, and until S2 a lot of the DP’s were pretty jank as AA’s . The risk/reward for jump-ins in the game is skewed because AA jab does so little for the defender, but even so we found that good players anti-aired, and bad or intermediate players often did not. That happens whether a game has shoryu inputs, chargeless down->up DP’s like Cinder or Wulf, or anti-air normals. Good players execute better than bad ones almost regardless of how low you put your execution floor. Even in KI’s CAM system the better player will generally display better overall execution, being able to more easily reset or frame trap or juggle or what have you.

Neutral and defense are also execution based - remove combos entirely (ala Divekick) and the player with the best combination of decision-making and execution (managing the game’s weird neutral) will still win. It’s a fallacy to think that there’s some way to entirely remove the need for players to do the right move at the right time - some measure of that will exist regardless of how far you tone down inputs. I’m all for making the game’s systems as accessible as possible, but your apparent end goal (a game where every person can play every character to peak) just isn’t possible, and you’d lose a lot of what makes FG’s fun in the first place in the attempt.

Just out of curiousity @Lulekani - how do you feel about DBFZ’s input system? I personally think it strikes a good balance (no shoryu inputs, autocombos letting newbies do cool things, homing dash and single button DHC’s) , but there’s no question at all that there are more advanced inputs that will give an experienced player a leg up. Do you think that game has a good control system, or do you think the more advanced options like jump cancels and raw Z-change supers should be removed?

[Lulekani]

@STORM179

What exactly are you defining as her rekka? The V-trigger string I assume then (when you said throw after I assumed you meant the command throw after overhead)? Either way the first hit is negative - if you block Karin flying at you or charging in, she’s negative and it isn’t her turn. She definitely doesn’t get to return to neutral and then throw.

Her QCB P… some times he only does the first one and the Does a regular throw rather than the follow up Throw.

@STORM179

Neutral and defense are also execution based - remove combos entirely (ala Divekick) and the player with the best combination of decision-making and execution (managing the game’s weird neutral) will still win.

Ofcourse they will… if you play better you deserve to win. But atleast the losing player won’t feel like they lost because they had the right plan but couldn’t execute… when you’ve got rubbish execution Fighting Games don’t feel like a Test of Skill they feel like an RNG Slot machine where something may or may not work.

@STORM179

It’s a fallacy to think that there’s some way to entirely remove the need for players to do the right move at the right time - some measure of that will exist regardless of how far you tone down inputs. I’m all for making the game’s systems as accessible as possible,

Yes… but thats not an excuse to making things harder. Throw teching and Tick Throwing is pretty hard for me but I don’t complain about because its as simple as it possibly could be… actually that’s not true since one button will always be easier to push than two.

@STORM179

but your apparent end goal (a game where every person can play every character to peak) just isn’t possible, and you’d lose a lot of what makes FG’s fun in the first place in the attempt.

I’m just waiting for that Neural Based input, a system devoid of all physical execution… hell when I die I’d gladly donate my brain for research purposes if it helps makes this an eventuality. Until then I’l guess we’l have to make do CAM and Fantasy Strike.

@STORM179

Just out of curiousity @Lulekani - how do you feel about DBFZ’s input system?

Haven’t tried that yet… I really dislike having to start learning a Fighting Game three Characters at a time. Its why I never Latched on to MvC3, process was just too complicated especially since theres no tutorial.

@STORM179

Do you think that game has a good control system, or do you think the more advanced options like jump cancels and raw Z-change supers should be removed?

Nothing should ever be removed… More stuff means more variety. And thats what everybody wants. Infact they should extend this courtesy to the Controls aswel, more ways to control your Character would be great.

I meam seriously KI is literally the only game thats made progress in this Area (with Combo Assist) the next was suppose to be Rising Thunder (We will never forget you). The last advancement in this area was the ability to set Button Macros and the was also probably the First too. I think every time somebody makes a suggestion about making Fighting Games more Accessible the response is always some variation of : “No matter how easy you make the game better players are still going to do better.” … sigh… since when has this been an excuse not do anything about it ?

It wouldn’t be surprise if Fantasy Strike winds up having some weird Execution Barrier but if Sirlin had the same attitude as the FGC then the game wouldn’t exist… atleast not as we know it today. It would have probably wound up as yet another Game alot of people can’t play… which is really the whole point of my argument. The problem isn’t not being able to win (well… I mean it is but thats a whole other issue) … the problem is feeling like you’re not even playing. The problem is Feeling like replacing the controller with a Coin Flip will yield more consistent results.

[Lulekani]

On the topic of One Button combos… like King of Fighter’s Rush Mode…

I don’t like those… particularly I don’t like them because In General the combos you get from that mechanic are almost always inferior in some way. They usually do less Damage.

Button more than that I think encouraging button mashing is pointless:

1. Because Button Mashing is harder than most people think and noobs suck at it probably just as badly as they do at everything else… I mean look at Ed’s Psycho Flicker.
2. Outside of doing those Combos Button Mashing only makes things worse… you can’t button mashing your way to good spacing or conditioning or anti airing (execpt in Street Fighter obviously). Really what the game should be doing is helping players get rid of those Tendencies as soon as possibly… its messed up for them to teach you something that you’l eventually have to unlearn.

Ironically KI’s CAM doesn’t really fall into this trap… difficult to say why though. Maybe its because Combos aren’t Guaranteed Damage in KI… hence you don’t have the luxury of completely turning off during combos.

[Lulekani]

Ah crap !!! Why didn’t I think of this earlier.

Okay so R. Mika’s Passion Press or Medium Punch was nerfed because it had to much wall carry to quickly right ?

So instead of nerfing that ■■■■ thing into oblivion, why didn’t they just remove tbe ability to Passion Press Forward ?

In other words Passion Press always Exchanges sides with the Opponent… meaning if you can’t use it to carry the opponent forward… only Backwards behind Mika.

To be frank… I don’t think it was right to nerf this move to begin with.

Edit:

#NEVERFORGET

Edit 2:

LoL… I just found out Mika’s Throw Wingless Airplane Option Select Auto Corrects itself if you try to Hop over her…

Yeah I’m starting to see why people don’t like her.

Speaking of which… I saw some old threads of people complaining about R. Mika. More specifically she was accused of being Cheap. Apparently her playstyle didn’t require any thought or Planning… “Flowchart Mika” is exactly what they called her and players who use her because thats essentially how you use her. You know what… hang on… I’m sure theres a … Ha !!! Found It ;

Yeah there you go… as you can you see, Follow the Chart and its a Guaranteed win.

Atleast thats what Anti-Mika Militia thinks. So here’s the thing, they accuse Mika players of being on Autopilot… and I don’t disagree, but its not like theres a way out of her Shenanigans especially for Characters with Invincible Reversals. Jump over the Command Throw and DP through everything Else… its really that simple. But more importantly if you’re losing to Mika its not because shes on Autopilot… IT’S BECAUSE YOU’RE THE ONE ON AUTOPILOT…

LoL… I mean think about it… if Mika Players weren’t thinking and trying to predict your response to each Knock Down, Reset and Guard Frame Trap then you should be winning because you could just figure out her Pattern and Punish her for being so predictable. If you keep getting Caught by her Command Throws its because you’re being predicable… no Mika player just does a Brimstone Willy Nilly… if she miss it shes Doomed… thats an easy 300 Damage Punish shes risking it all for… obviously if you’re so Scared that you jump backwards instead of Straight Up then you’re obviously not going to punish jack… in fact there’s no point in Jumping Backwards at all, you’re just doing Brimstone’s Job when you try to avoid it like that since thats why Mika Players are doing that Throw in the First Place… for the Positioning.

LoL… Now I’m not saying she wasn’t Annoying…ofcourse she was, but she wasn’t God Tier Over Powered… unless she got you in a Corner… but this was Offset by being Crap Tier Under Powered whenever she wasn’t in the Corner.

[anon39655210]

[KombatLeaguer]

Yay! Blanks is one of my favorite Street Fighter characters.

[Lulekani]

Vesper Strikes again.

Edit: YAY… 3000 POSTS… GIVE ME MY COOKIE !!!