Why would it not be this way? Tournament players are the ones who are most likely to, and are most noticeably, going to show the full potential of a character.
ā¦Because nobody was ever able to block Sabrewulfās Instinct.
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I just ask because I personally donāt choose characters based on what the pros say, or any one else. So that I understand pros have the say so in a character my thoughts and opinions donāt matter.
Iām really sensitive to this too, actually. But the challenge is that if you donāt balance around the highest level of play where do you balance? And how can you tell the changes you make are doing what you want?
I think for beginners Sabrewulf will always be an easy character. His basic strategy is fairly simple and his good buttons are pretty obvious and easy to find.
The group that is hardest to balance for is the group that is probably highly represented on these boards and that I group myself in. The āenthusiastic amateur.ā So people who play enough and understand fighting games enough to do some advanced tech, but not all of it and who have good but not perfect matchup knowledge. The reason itās hard to balance around that group is because we all have different levels of skill and deficiency in our games. So, while I am good in neutral play, I still have trouble in recognizing some character auto doubles and donāt manual well. Whereas someone else of similar skill may be great with manuals but have poor matchup knowledge in the neutral. So how do you ābalanceā a character?
What they default to is the highest level of play. The good news is that I think KI still has good balance throughout the skill levels.
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Whew, just finished reading through that entire thread. Great conversation, guys! Really enjoyed it.
Personally, I donāt mind the damage nerfs at all. Most season one characters seemed to be built for smaller combos / bigger damage (though small is a relative term, I guess) while season two characters seem to be more in the larger combos (with juggles) / smaller damage camp.
Iām overgeneralizing, of course, but sometimes it was rather odd to me how much damage some characters could do in a few moves versus how much others needed a massive combo to get. Remember when everyone was talking about how much Cinder had to do just to get the same damage as many season one characters seemingly doing half as much?
So yeah, I actually donāt mind that they toned damage down across the board, but especially for season one characters (minus Fulgore, of course).
As far as balance is concerned, I think itās tough to please everyone. Higher level players will try and find more ways to exploit the system or use it to itās fullest, so they should be at the forefront in terms of how the devs are creating and balancing characters.
But that doesnāt mean that the rest of us shouldnāt or arenāt taken in to account. @DyingAlloy66626, I think our opinions do matter, as @BigBadAndy says, most of us fall in to the āenthusiastic amateurā range, which is a pretty wide range in terms of skills, strengths, weaknesses, and overall knowledge.
Then you go beyond that to a more casual audience and the numbers increase, just as there are more enthusiastic amateurs than there are pro players, so too are there (a lot) more casuals. Youāre not going to have a successful game if only a small number of high level players can enjoy it and you wonāt have a well made game if only casuals like it and higher level players canāt find any depth below the surface. So itās a two way street here (three if youāre counting the middle group that many of us fall into).
As far as diving slash goes, which Iāve seen talked about, count me as a fan. I can definitely see the utility in it, and itāll definitely be fun trying new mix ups, keeping pressure on, closing in on pesky zoners like Glacius and Kan Ra better (Iād hope).
Of course, I also think that the move looks really plain, even for a command move. Maybe put a green trail on it? Or make him spiral diagonally downward in more of a ragged edge or even old school spinning claw type of way? I dunno. Itās not terrible, but it still looks awkward to me. I doubt they will, but Iām kinda hoping they spruce it up a bit before release.
As far as his instinct, I think this is another example of utility versus fun, a more hardcore tool in FCs versus a more casual tool in damage buff.
I donāt personally enjoy feral cancels that much. I can do them. I know why they exist. I like making unsafe moves safe, but thereās nothing really fun or satisfying about this move, even when watching it used at high levels.
For me, the fun always came at popping instinct, watching Wulf hulk out and do more damage. Chip damage wasnāt āfunā per se either, but in concert with the overall damage buff, it was kinda cool.
Again though, I see why theyād take the damage buff away and I do see the bigger picture and understand that everything will fit together in the construct of season three and itās characters.
My issue now is that they took out something fun, and didnāt replace it with something fun. To me, thatās a net negative in terms of my overall enjoyment of the character. Will there be other parts that are fun? Certainly. But not his instinct. They went the more utilitarian route and geared it more toward higher level players and for a lower level player such as myself, wellā¦ Why would I be happy about that when I donāt overly use FCs and when I do, Iām not bowled over by how fun they are to use.
I mentioned before the idea of letting him manually tack up to four bats on to the end of his enders for extra damage (depending on the level of the ender), even if itās only a sliver per bat. Just give him something flashy, something fun thatāll give lower level players a certain feeling of satisfaction or enjoyment when he pops instinct. Thatās all Iām asking. It doesnāt have to be bats either, it can be something else.
I get that not every character has a āfunā instinct. But I certainly enjoy most of them and with very few exceptions have something nice for players of all skill levels to look forward to when they pop instinct. I mean, Iād take Fulgoreās manual shadow charge with FP/FK over chip damage, but maybe thatās just me.
Long story short here, I get why FCs are strong and important, Iām just not a huge fan of them in terms of the fun factor category and for many players, thatās a consideration. It may not be as important as how good or how useful a move is, but if itās a move thatās much more utilized by high level players, I still feel like there should be something for the rest of the players as well, especially when there was something there to begin with, that has now since been removed.
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Sept. of 2014 we Sadira mains thought that our world was over. Many people had believed that Sadira was now in the junk category and even some top players like CDjr dropped her like a fly. However, those of us who stuck with her, found that while she wasnāt the unbreakable monster she was in S1, she was still viable, and in many ways even more powerful.
I remember getting remarks from angry players stating that they thought sheād been nerfed to the ground.
Keits mentioned many times, that we shouldnāt look at any one change on its own, but must consider every single change in context of all the other changes.
Yes, Wulf will no longer be able to do unreactable dash/eclipse combos nor be able to just go all free for all in Instinct, but heās getting more options to open people up and combined with a taste of Sadiraās juggle capabilities is going to make Wulf incredibly dangerousā¦ just a bit more fair.
Letās be honest, most players donāt use their characterās instinct the way it should. As a Sadira main, 90% of the people that use my character pop instinct and just hope youāll land in it. Hardly any of them can properly jump cancel a web, auto, or special.
I can say the same thing about Wulfās Instinct. For every 1 Wulf main that I come across that actually know how to use his Instinct, Iāll run into 10 to 20 that donāt. Theyāll pop that Instinct clear across the screen then run at me, like little furry cannon balls.
I think Wulfās changes seem harsh, but within the context of S3 changes, I think youāll be surprised at all the stuff heāll be able to do. Donāt judge him until youāve actually played the new build.
Now the greater question isā¦ Who will get Sadiraed next? 
Not that you should complain about Riptorās tail-flip but thatās going to be reactable or a bit easier for someone who has such a hard time on it. Especially since theyāre slower as a result. So in a way, Riptor now has nothing people canāt react to, and neither will Sabrewulf.
So if anything RIpotrās lost some stuff to.
If one thing can be taken from the rebalance, EVERYONE got weaker damage nerfs, and everyone lost was was once considered very vital factors of the game.
Iāve fouht Sabrewulf bunches of times however and I donāt think he was ever really a problem, his mix-ups were challenge yes, but unreactable? nah.
I usually play Jago against my brotherās Sabrewulf and our matches were usually 40/60 with my bro mostly winning but it was never a time when the both of us were in the last few bits of our life-bars and I can say the two of us are both equals in skill.
As far as beginer characters though, Sabrewulf still has good mix-ups from his running moves, he has alot of ways to attack from three different levels of High, medium and low attacks and several in each. You may have to think a bit more with your mix-ups but youāll still be able to lay into your foes.
Keep on howling Wulf-players.
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I have nothing to say, but I thought this might be the best line ever so I had to quote it.
Not much of a question. It already happened to Kan-Ra 
Not going to lie I got a good laugh from this.
The damage nerf or the FC doesnāt bother me as much. What bothers me is Wulfās play in general heās slower āreactableā his animations and game play are out of place for the character he is or was.
@BigBadAndy it just seems that only pro opinions matter. I remember in S1 pros were using Wulf or at least it seemed like it when the hosted tournaments. Only to win with the exception of a few enjoying the character. I can see why they nerfed S1 Wulf in some aspects but on one hand changed other especially for casual players. Now the same with S3 Wulf. Each time I watch S3 Wulf game play the character looks out of place. The āimprovementsā to S3 Wulf made were ābugsā pros found. Apparently they know whatās best. Iām new to participating in FGC so I have a lot to learn. Bare with me.
Dude, no worries. You are all good. I felt the same way as you about balancing around the pros, but I havenāt been able to think of a better alternative. I do think people need to make sure the game is viable for the majority of players, but I think KI is a very fun game at intermediate levels.
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The reality is, there isnāt another way to balance this other than based upon the āProsā perspective unfortunately. A good example, is if things were up to me, characters like Riptor, Cinder, Hisako, Shadow Jago, and Kan Ra would be completely removed from the game until they are properly balanced (in my opinion). And that is exactly the reason they donāt come to me. 
To think like a Pro is to not automatically assume another character is OP, because you lost to them, but figure out what works best to defeat them. Granted with their skill sets, they can certainly tell when a character has become a bit more powerful (finding new tech, loop holes around game mechanics and such) than what they intended, (like Kan Ra).
In truth, it isnāt as much as our feedback isnāt important, but that we far too often give feedback based upon our own emotional connections versus on what is really good for the character within the context of the game itself.
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off topic but related to this ālistening to prosā in designing FGsā¦
Not many people talk around here about one little new tool in Wulfs, arsenalā¦ the lk flip out
Of course his damage was nerfed. He can finish most of his combos with a juggle into his flip out/ragged edge into groundbounce into recapture or flip out. And then you have another mix up into combo into juggle ender into flip out into mix upā¦
Previously Wulf was a 10/10 rushdown character with top 3 damage (maybe the best) and some issues against zoning
Now is still one of the best rushdown chars, with even more mix ups and better approaching
Iām no Wulf main, but I still see him as a terrorific threat
Watch how scary Cupcake makes S3 Wulf look in this set. He makes really good use of LK flipout after everything (combo juggles, reversals, whatever) and the dive kick looks silly good for approach, giving Wulf a whole new possible angle to scare you with.
(The audio is super NSFW though, I would just mute it)
Very true and Iām guilty of this. However donāt pros do this too? I saw some upsets with Kan-ra.
Never been into SF but interesting to know that Iām not alone in my observations.
Lol yeah I had to mute the others too. I personally still donāt think S3 Wulf is scary watching the early builds. There was one match I thought was decent though. Could you please upload the playset with the āflash chugging beersā playing Wulf?
Edit: Found the GT
I tend to think as pro players almost along the same lines as game testers. They play so much, they learn every which way possible to exploit moves, matchups, etc, that devs almost have to look to them when it comes to character balance, how good moves are, how much people should be allowed to exploit them, etc.
But again, I really donāt think that means that devs ONLY look to pro players or that theyāre the only ones that matter. Iāve never had that vibe from IG that they think this way. If anything, I think MS/IG have been very approachable and responsive to players of all skill levels not just here on the forums or on twitter, but in how they tune the game from characters to moves.
So I donāt know if Iād worry about that too much, @DyingAlloy66626. There are some very knowledgeable people here, but there are players of all skill levels here as well. Beyond that, there are tons of players out there of all skill levels. No dev would cater solely to the top ten percent while the other 90% are left to whither on the vine.
As for Wulfās damage nerfs, I still think that you can play him the same way you did before. Maybe not quite as effectively, but from the way Keits sounded, they wanted to add more options to the characters, but it didnāt mean you HAD to use those options and that you absolutely had to change the way you play a character.
My only real issues with Wulf are his Diving Slash looking a little plain / needing some flash added to it and the removal of the fun part of his instinct without replacing it with something else. I know why it was removed and Iām fine with it, but not giving lower level players something to play around with when many lower level players donāt understand or like or use feral cancels is a bit disheartening. I still hope that they can add something to his instinct thatās fun for all skill levels, even if it doesnāt do a lot of damage.
Oh no Iām not worried I just want to be sure I understand how the things work in the FGC. Iāve said my thoughts they donāt really matter but Iām glad casual players share the ideals. So thatās all that really matters.
The damage reduction didnāt really bother me as much, I just donāt like that they keep changing the character. Slower and now a juggler.
I agree with you 100% on this. It just doesnāt look fluid. Since they increase his speed. Maybe they could have him run, do a flip over the projectile and then dive slash?
[quote=āDyingAlloy66626, post:116, topic:4456ā]
Very true and Iām guilty of this. However donāt pros do this too? I saw some upsets with Kan Ra
[/quote]yes they do. But the presumption is they at least bring in depth knowledge of how the game works. I feel like Iām pretty good but Iām still regularly learning things about how the characters and their moves work. the higher your base level of understanding then (presumably) the more accurate your assessment. But emotion is always a factor.
[quote=āIago407, post:117, topic:4456ā]
it and the removal of the fun part of his instinct without replacing it with something else. I know why it was removed and Iām fine with it, but not giving lower level players something to play around with when many lower level players donāt understand or like or use feral cancels is a bit disheartening. I still hope that they can add something to his instinct thatās fun for all skill levels, even if it doesnāt do a lot of damage.
[/quote]the use of a characterās instinct in an effective way is really a skill that most people need to work on in KI. 95% of people use it for double ultras or to make raw shadows safe in block. Wulf was one of the few that just ādid stuffā on its own without the player having to make any effort. I can see why itās sad, but with the change its not more challenging to use than other characterās instincts.
Well, I donāt know if there are any hard and fast rules as far as the FGC is concerned. Iāve been posting on boards like this for years now and most people I encounter are rather nice and/or helpful. There will be differences of opinion, of course, but I tend to think that more people are understanding, or willing to explain something if they know what you or I might not.
Sure, there are those that are dismissive, if not outright derisive, but no need to bother with them. Like I said, weāre all on different footing here and I think most people respect that. KIās community tends to be more inclusive, I think. Most of us want more people playing the game.
I think that juggling will be an extra option for him, but I donāt know if it replaces what he was good at before. I donāt think itāll be āhe was this before, and now heās that.ā He might not be as good at some of that stuff that he was good at before, but heāll still be able to do most of it and you can still play him that way and have fun and get really good playing him that way.
I donāt think a lot of these changes will destroy him on lower/mid levels. I think youāll only really notice the nerfs to what he did well before on mid/higher levels, where some players might change things up by adding in the new tech or emphasizing / exploiting it more, but weāll have to see how that plays out.
As far as not liking changes to characters, I personally enjoy it because it gives me a fresh take on that character, gives me some new toys to play with, etc, but I can see why you wouldnāt be a fan. Hopefully youāll play him and realize heās more fun. Guess weāll see!
Yeah I hear ya, Iām not really talking about challenge factor, though Iād probably argue that more lower level players arenāt using FC nearly as much because itās benefits arenāt as readily apparent as a damage buff was in his season 2 instinct.
Really, Iām just talking more from a fun-factor standpoint. From a utility standpoint, his instinct is fine, even with the nerf. Iāve seen high level players use the S2 version really well. I just donāt find it all that compelling or fun to use. The fun part was the damage boost and I wish there was something replacing that lost fun factor, even if it was something that did chip-level damage.