Sabrewulf Season 3 Rebalance Thread

Added change list to OP
-CStyles45

Sabrewulf

[-] Feral Cancel has a 30 frame longer cooldown, and a new indicator when it is ready for use again.
[-] Leaping Slash startup slowed down. This move now hits on frame 20 instead of frame 14.
[-] Fixed a bug preventing Feral Cancel from carrying over breaker windows for a few frames from the previous move correctly.
[-] Running Uppercut has 12 additional frames of recovery, but is still -2 on block and allows Wulf to break out early for all of the same juggles with the same timing. Attack box size reduced.
[-] Eclipse damage reduced by ~15%
[-] Shadow Eclipse Damage Reduced by ~35% (because you can juggle after it)
[-] All Ender damage reduced by ~15%
[-] Sabrewulf no longer gets any damage bonus during instinct. He still deals chip damage with normals, however.
[-] The frame on which Wulf can cancel his dash into a special has moved from frame 14 to frame 16.
[-] Eclipse and Shadow Eclipse no longer auto correct to turn around and face the opponent after a forward dash.
[-] Crouching HP starts up 1 frame slower so that you cannot use this Heavy attack as a Medium manual.
[-] Sabrewulf’s Medium Leaping Slash Linker now hits two times. The Heavy Leaping Slash and Heavy Hamstring Linkers now hit three times.
[-] Eclipse and Shadow Eclipse inflict less blockstun, making them a bit easier to punish.
[+] Standing HK causes Stagger.
[+] The final hit of Ragged Edge and Shadow Ragged Edge now causes a ground bounce against airborne opponents for increased juggle opportunities.
[+] Crouching LK causes Flip Out.
[+] MK and HK versions of Run move faster.
[+] Hamstring’s slide travels farther.
[+] New command move: Diving Slash! During Jump Up or Jump Forward, F+MK.
-Cannot be done from a jump back.
-Has very few active frames, but tends to leave Sabrewulf roughly even with his opponent.
-Has the landing recovery of a normal jump attack, making it useful for repositioning.

i understand they nerfed for most part in general…but damn…they took away the extra damage on his instinct --…and didn’t compensate…oh…but wait he can juggle -- foh with that :(… I mean atleast everyone else compensated the nerf in some way :(…well I guess imma have to find a new main now

1 Like

I agree that the Instinct damage nerf was a little too far. I don’t feel sorry for him regarding everything else though.

4 Likes

I think that his damage could’ve been hit less hard. The damage was the reason I originally picked up Sabrewulf as my main in Season1. At least keep the Instinct damage…
I feel if they were going to give him new tools they could’ve made the new tools a little better. Make the new Diving Slash an overhead like the grounded version (and, as far as I know, other jumping attacks…)

Wulf, IMO, needs his damage to stay competitive. He should keep some of it.

3 Likes

Taking the instinct damage would have made sense if he still hit as hard as he currently does. But they’re also nerfing his regular ender damage so they should have left the instinct damage buff.

8 Likes

You have to look at it in the context of everything else, since pretty much every character lost damage unless they use damage ender.

Feral cancels are so incredibly good that the damage boost on top of it was just too much.

4 Likes

I think the main difference is that where most characters had their non-damage enders nerfed, Sabrewulf had all of his enders nerfed. Plus a 15% nerf to Eclipse and a 35% nerf to Shadow Eclipse. If this works out the way I think it does, this means they actually nerfed his damage ender options on top of his general ender nerfs.
Ender damage being retooled to fit their functions (splat, juggle, damage) is understandable, but when you need the damage ender to be closer to the other enders it kinda soils it, doesn’t it? Might wind up with a situation like where Riptor and TJ get more damage from Wallsplat into Throw than their actual damage ender.

So unless the Eclipse nerfs only apply to neutral, I’m going to be a bit tender. Nerfs to Leaping Slash and Feral cancels I can understand, and I think I can cope with the Running Uppercut nerf. Some good new stuff with the Ragged Dunk and the improved run/hamstring, But nerfing both ender damage AND the damage ender AND removing the instinct damage buff?
I’d be a lot less salty if they made the Diving Slash an overhead (give me the ability to fly through the sky and shout “WEEEEEE!” into a combo and I’ll be a lot more agreeable with a damage nerf) and I’ll probably get over it with time, but for today at least I’m going to just try to reduce my sodium balance with my tears.

…Why is it that every other post I make turns into TL;DR territory really quick? :cold_sweat:

Edit: Just making this semi-rant post and taking in the patch notes made my kidneys feel much better.

2 Likes

Lol I thought that they may try and help sabre come s3. They nerfd him even more. Unfortunately 1 or 2 high level players ruin it for all other players. Don’t know why IG keeps doing this.

Hey IG we are not all paulbs and mygods. We just like to have some fun.

And what is this new command move. Sounds lame.

So glad sfv will be out soon.

2 Likes

I think the dive kick is supposed to be for positioning, not really for attacking. I mean, if you make someone block it, that’s a bonus, but the real use is positioning. I definitely think it would be goofy (in a bad way) if it was an overhead.

Faster run coupled with running uppercut is super good, I think. Farther reach on hamstring to slide under stuff like Glacius Hail is also a big deal.

I think the damage nerfs are pretty warranted considering you get juggles after shadow eclipse, and every time you get shadow eclipse, you can also choose to flip out after it (meaning his damage ender gets him a ton of extra offense).

2 Likes

U make a good point about the new run speeds and further slide. Hope they fixed the kanra scarab issue or it will be useless in a kanra matchup.

Just reads as a lot of nerfs. Makes me salty.

I’ve gotten over a lot of my salt after posting, so looking at it as a tool for getting to help get in is a good way to keep the sodium down. I think the new run will be nice, for sure. Nice for getting in Riptor Style, which is a little piece I think Wulf was missing.
Using Dive Slash and Uber Run in tandem kinda sounds like a combination of Sadira and Riptor, thinking about it, which gets me pretty happy.

I will say though that the juggle state into would only apply to shadow eclipse, so I don’t see it being as warranted on meterless eclipse ender. As an anti-air that hits basically everywhere, I can see it getting a neutral nerf, but if it applies an extra 15% nerf to the standard damage ender it makes me nervous.

A nerf to a move in neutral wouid not apply to the ender version. They’re governed by completely different properties. So the two 15% nerfs won’t stack into a 30% nerf. The eclipse ender will only have one 15% nerf.

A lot of people’s damage enders got hit by 10% or so. Definitely more characters than just Wulf, so I think that change was just to keep Wulf’s damage ender in line with what everyone else’s is.

Shadow Eclipse losing 30% or whatever it was as a damage ender makes a lot of sense to me, because flip out is extremely potent. Imagine getting a 50% cash out AND getting a reset in Wulf’s favor? Your offense doesn’t end and it does a ton of damage?

I think it’s kind of clear where they wanted Wulf to end up after S3; give him a bit better mobility to handle bad matchups (faster run, better hamstring, a jump-altering dive kick), make his damage and mixups off the now faster run a little worse, so he can’t put you in a 15 frame overhead from full screen before you even notice he’s running.

You also have to think what happened to his bad matchups? VS Glacius is probably better (although we’ll see how multi-Hail does) because he can contest mid screen a bit better and gain more position after full screen shatter. VS Kan-Ra is probably better, because of Kan-Ra’s changes. VS Aganos is better, because fierce now destroys armor for free (and Wulf has maybe the best fierce button in the entire game, with Overpower). But most of his strength in his GOOD matchups (stuff like Shadow Ragged Edge being an amazing punish, his amazing ground control) haven’t changed at all, yeah?

2 Likes

If that’s the case, I’m a lot less worried than I was before. Still pretty bummed that Sabrewulf (and a lot of other characters) are losing damage since high damage is what gets me high, but considering the new stuff he’s getting I’m more amiable to it.

Edit:
@Infilament Yeah, keep forgetting about what this sort of thing does against the things that made me drop Wulf for online play. Now that he has a way to get passed some of the crazy keep away (which is only getting more daunting for a lot or characters) I think I can handle losing damage in order to keep Wulf actually in the fight.
As far as shadow eclipse goes, I’ve been saying that the damage Nerf because of juggles makes more sense, I was mainly worried about meterless.
But thinking about it, good call on the diving overhead. I got a bit greedy :stuck_out_tongue:

[quote][-] Feral Cancel has a 30 frame longer cooldown, and a new indicator when it is ready for use again.
[-] Fixed a bug preventing Feral Cancel from carrying over breaker windows for a few frames from the previous move correctly.
[-] Sabrewulf no longer gets any damage bonus during instinct. He still deals chip damage with normals, however.
[/quote]
In instinct, his damage bonus will be removed, and the bug fix will make him easier to break. Obviously, the bug fix was needed, but I’m not okay with the damage bonus removal (which was only 10%) combined with the Feral Cancel cooldown increase. One of those two changes would be fine, but both make his instinct less useful. It hurts both players who use Feral Cancel and those who don’t, but players in the latter category get hit harder because they gain nothing from his instinct. Also, the chip damage on normals is nothing to fear, and no one will just sit still and block during Feral Cancel. They’re more likely to break or Shadow Counter when they see a chance, and the changes will make that much easier.

This change means humans can react to Leaping Slash now, and it will be in line with other overhead attacks in the game. The slower startup means you will have one less option for getting over fireballs and low attacks. Still, I’ll say this is a fair change.

This change will prevent him from spamming this for advancement (while also protecting him from nearly all air attacks). A timing change was also mentioned during the stream (and we haven’t seen how that works), but the opponent will still be in trouble if it hits or is blocked. This is a fair change.

[quote][-] Eclipse damage reduced by ~15%
[-] Shadow Eclipse Damage Reduced by ~35% (because you can juggle after it)
[-] All Ender damage reduced by ~15%[/quote]
All characters except Fulgore, Hisako, and Aria received significant damage reductions, and the (obvious) intent was to facilitate more combos, longer combos, and creative combos. The Shadow Eclipse damage reduction makes sense because of the juggle system change. However, the damage reduction on normal Eclipse is a head-scratcher. Eclipse has fast startup, but it also has very few active frames and no invulnerability (unlike a true DP). The change was likely added to stop the dash -> Eclipse shenanigans (which worked very well in S1 and only slightly less so in S2), but it also hurts Eclipse when its used as anti-air. Furthermore, they didn’t change the frames and it appears to retain its soft knockdown property (no juggle after it). So… ?

[quote][-] The frame on which Wulf can cancel his dash into a special has moved from frame 14 to frame 16.
[-] Eclipse and Shadow Eclipse no longer auto correct to turn around and face the opponent after a forward dash.
[-] Eclipse and Shadow Eclipse inflict less blockstun, making them a bit easier to punish.[/quote]
These changes also aid with the dash -> Eclipse tactics that were hard to deal with. These are fair.

Jago received the same adjustment. This is fair.

I’ll say this is a fair change because Sabrewulf didn’t follow the linker hit rule. Personally, I felt that was another quality that made him unique, kinda like how Orchid’s shadow Flik Flak hits aren’t rhythmic, and it certainly wasn’t game-breaking. Still, this was obviously done to satisfy other players, especially newcomers, and I can understand that. I do hope the heavy versions are more damaging, and not simply the same as the current two-hit damage spread over three hits. If nothing else, it will be a little easier to add a counter breaker to them

[quote][+] Standing HK causes Stagger.
[+] The final hit of Ragged Edge and Shadow Ragged Edge now causes a ground bounce against airborne opponents for increased juggle opportunities.
[+] Crouching LK causes Flip Out.[/quote]
Sabrewulf gets to play with both of the major system changes, and that’s good. I still don’t like the idea of adding jump/air-attack stopping properties to moves that weren’t designed for it (the same was done when they added recapture to Shadow Leaping Slash in S2), but I guess we’ll have to wait and see how that works out in S3.

[quote][+] MK and HK versions of Run move faster.
[+] Hamstring’s slide travels farther.[/quote]
The Run change does make sense when paired with the change to Running Uppercut. As for other uses, I suppose Sabrewulf can use the different runs as the opponent’s position changes. The Hamstring change is good, but I think opponents will be looking for it since they’ll be able to react to Leaping Slash.

[quote][+] New command move: Diving Slash! During Jump Up or Jump Forward, F+MK.
-Cannot be done from a jump back.
-Has very few active frames, but tends to leave Sabrewulf roughly even with his opponent.
-Has the landing recovery of a normal jump attack, making it useful for repositioning.[/quote]
I’m not sold on this, and I see very little utility in it. It seems they wanted to give Sabrewulf something to make up for the Leaping Slash change, but didn’t want it to be an overhead (it even uses the same animations). He doesn’t have a high or arcing jump, and getting behind opponents with it will require a closer jump-in, which can be easily stopped by DPs and other anti-air attacks.

And against Glacius, his worst matchup in the game? Before I saw the Glacius changes, I thought Diving Slash would be very good for getting around his Shatter and Hail tactics. After I saw the Glacius changes, I thought Diving Slash would have situational use, at best. Sabrewulf will certainly catch a Glacius throwing out a raw Shatter or Hail, but the new Multi-Hail and Hail hold will still keep Sabrewulf zoned out (and any decent Glacius player will do that). I don’t see this matchup changing much for Sabrewulf because Glacius will become an even stronger zoner. The ground bounce Hail still limits Sabrewulf’s approach, and he’ll be able to counter Diving Slash (and at the same time). Hail damage was also reduced, though… maybe fighting Glacius will be similar to fighting Kan-Ra (eat the lower damage to avoid the higher damage)?

Overall, I’m not sure how I feel about all of the changes. On the surface, it seems Sabrewulf has to earn most of his damage while playing within the confines of the new system (and its changes), while all of the other characters received new ways to do damage outside of Flip Out, Stagger, or juggle tactics. He’s been weakened considerably again, but I can’t help feeling IG went a little too far, this time.

4 Likes

I am apparently the only person in the world that used Wulfs far hk, so I’m glad that it got a stagger now, and the damage nerf in instinct was a bit too far imo.
The hamstring buff on top of the run speed increase is going to make zoning Wulf with characters like Jago or Fulgore that much harder, since hamstring low profiles fireballs and such.
I never really used running uppercut for positioning purposes anyway, so that’s not too big of a deal, especially since the on hit and on block frame data is the same

The Feral Cancel change definitely seemed to be IG moving it away from a “free all-manual combo” trait to a purely pressure trait.

The increased cooldown is enough that you can’t get basically free 30% by spamming FC’d hamstring linkers into cr.HK manuals.

Feral Cancels still means that Sabrewulf’s heavy ragged edge goes from an easily shadow counterable, somewhat unsafe on block advancing move, to a UBER+ on block, non-shadow counterable, advancing pressure tool. Ragged Edge FC pressure will still be the best thing since sliced bread.

As for the linkers, I gotta admit, we were getting away with murder on our leaping slash linkers.

I think that Ragged Edge doing ground bounce will help alot. I’m afraid of getting shadow countered so generally I’m going to do Ragged Edge if I think they’re going to backdash me. But at this same range they often just jump back, and all I get is a dinky 5% for reading their retreat correctly, but guessing wrong on their particular method of retreat.

cr.LK, s.LK, b+s.HP are appear to be UNTOUCHED in terms of + frames. This makes me very happy as it means Sabrewulf still has his “you need to DP, SC, or BD, or you ain’t getting out of this.” He still has his pressure which forces you to take risks to get out.

I think them keeping that, coupled with making leaping slash 20 on startup, and IG kinda wants Sabrewulf to play like a pressure style character instead of a mixup style character. I always favored towards the former so I’m ok with that.

Some changes were kinda annoying. Felt like IG was in a “juggling act” of their own to make juggles balanced. Damage decrease on regular eclipse for example. The decrease was obviously to make eclipse less damaging when used as part of juggles, but as a naked AA it definitely didn’t do too much damage.

So, despite my optimism about Wulf, did we get nerfed? Hell yeah lol. The term “nerf” can be a bit wide ranging, so when I say nerf I mean nerfed by THIS:
http://ivhp.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/best-nerf-machine-gun.jpg

…but just like Season 2, Sabrewulf is weaker than he was, but he has more tools than he did before. He won’t be as dominant, but he’ll be more fun to play. I’ll take that trade off.

1 Like

Wulf will always be a good pocket toy to play with, but I don’t think he has what it takes to be a main anymore

1 Like

I am thinking the damage could increase by just a hair in instinct. I don’t think a lot of the regular casual crowd understands feral cancelling. They see the Wulf get all swole and then he doesn’t do much with it. He needs just a small 5% damage increase if just any morsel.

What if they made his instinct burn out a little faster? Maybe that would compensate for some damage increase.

HK was super tricky, perhaps high risk, medium reward in many situations, so I didn’t use it much.

It was pretty character specific which move you could “whiff crush” with it since Sabrewulf’s “reel back” was good, but definitely was not “ankle slicer” levels. You could very well get stuffed if your opponent just used a longer range normal to counter poke.

But yeah, I think you’re right. Giving it stagger really increase the reward. I see many medium counter pokes getting devoured by this in the future :slightly_smiling:

I used it as a fake frame trap after a jump-in to catch people pressing buttons.