Not what I implied but thanks for the input I guess…
It is all good I think he is really good and also “silly” he definitely has more shenanigans than other characters imo but overall I think he is very beatable and not so crazy to justify a “Rash is OP” thread, but having been gone for awhile due to training and seeing now apparently a majority of the roster is OP now lol.
So I tested out just how plus Rash is on run cancel boot. He’s freaking +4, this thing is one frame away from being a true blockstring. But this also means that he can run cancel boot into medium instead of jabs because even though your opponent can stick a 4 frame jab in there the priority system will cause your medium to beat out their jab on the same frame, meaning Rash can loop this and still get a decent first hit bonus damage.
I also realized that run can be cancelled into ram with heavy punch, meaning if you are fighting someone that can backdash out of the frame trap you can use that to catch them. I actually used that in a match, the guy backdashed and punished me for trying to use the frame trap twice and on the third time I cancelled run into ram and hit him out of it.
Ok… so I have spent 3 fights trying to find solution to Rash wrecking ball with Arbiter.
The guy spent his time doing the wrecking ball from one side tho the other, and in the corners after a few block string combos.
There is ABSOLUTLY NOTHING that I can do 90% of the time, except under a specific angle or if I anticipate (which is big a risk).
He is also able to perform a cross up after a lp battering ram on block, while I’m trying to throw him.
That is just…
Arbiter and Aganos fall into the “literally can’t do anything about wrecking ball” category. I’ve seen people say anti-air gun will work but I could never get it to work (though maybe it’s easier now that they nerfed wrecking ball’s recovery in the last patch)
As for the light ram, it’s only -2, you have to basically input throw on the first frame you’re out of block stun if you want to throw him before he jumps, it’s better to just jab punish since it’ll catch him standing if he tries to jump and it’ll hit him out of throw if he tries to tech throw.
Since they decreased block stun on wrecking ball, Arbiter can now do df+HK anti-air and always beat whatever Rash tries. The old technique I reported on about cr.HP low-profiling doesn’t seem to work anymore for some reason, dunno why, but it was unreliable at best even back then.
But this move is the ONLY move I could find for Arbiter that works. His standing jab comes out, but doesn’t hit Rash’s hitbox after he blocks MK wrecking ball.
Aganos can now AA flick everything too.
-2 means you can’t punish him with a throw as it’s too slow (-2 is actually unpunishable in KI) so if he is holding up to jump you absolutely cannot throw him, as he will be in pre jump frames and immune to throws. As you said if you hit him with a jab in pre jump frames you will get a grounded combo so that is your best option, but no matter how fast you are a throw will not work if they are holding up.
Huh, I completely forgot pre jump frames were un-grab-able. I was too busy doing the math on the frames to realize it didn’t matter lol
I’m sorry but, barely.
cr fwd hk works only in specific situations and angles, because Arbiter doesn’t have a anti air that comes out in less than 11 frames, which is completely stupid IMO.
[quote=“SithLordEDP, post:104, topic:9273”]
As for the light ram, it’s only -2[/quote]
Wow! So he can spam this one as well on block without fearing any punishment?
That’s why I think this character is completely brainless to play…
Lots of Rash players, just use him to troll with his stupidly broken moves.
Sorry, but I had to complain about it.
Yes, it is safe, but that doesn’t mean it is good for them to spam it. You have to keep them honest not the other way around.
It is negative so set something up. Do a few lights and make sure he knows that he has to block after it. From there, you’re free to set up something big. Go for your most stupidly plus move and frame trap. Go for a tick throw. Go for a high/low or a cross-up. Make him nervous to touch a button, then start walking up and throwing., etc.
Thanks for your answer.
So I have labed some stuff about lp ram and wrecking ball.
After a lp ram, all I can do (as an Arby player) is to spam lights. But I guess that will be the same for most of the characters.
If I have a very good timing I can target combo lp-lk flip out to reset.
About the wrecking ball, it is stil very risky.
From far away, I can stop lk and mk wrecking ball with jump fwd hk. Hk wrecking ball travels so far and so fast that I can’t punish it all the time.
Arbiter having slow moves, it is very difficult to punish it with reflex.
In the corner, if the angle is good, if i’m fast enough, I can punish with cr. fwd hk. But going from guard to fwd to punish a so quick move is not the most convenient.
What I’m trying to tell you is that it isn’t all you can do.
Think of it like poker. You will end up taking risks to open them up, but it is about taking those risks when you are in a strong position and mitigating them when you are not.
Arbiter is a great example. You keep him honest with lk, lk… it is +1 so it can function as a frame trap, and it is about as safe as you’re going to get. Rash should learn (if they haven’t already, you have a duty to teach them) that what they just did is minus… so they don’t get to push a button. Once they aren’t pushing buttons (aside from the occasional hail mary reversal), you start to mix them up.
Arbiter has a special overhead that is 0 on block. Reactable, yes. Easily reactable? No. He has a teleporting command throw that starts up in as many frames. lk, lk into grenade attaches the grenade directly and makes sure Rash has to think twice about touching buttons even more.
So don’t think about “how can I punish this” because you can’t. Think instead, “Now it is my turn, how can I open him up”.
Caveat: I don’t play Arbiter, and that is from like a total of 5 minutes in the lab with him, so I’m not sure what is completely viable, and what isn’t… but they are intended just as examples of how you should be thinking.
I haven’t been in the lab in a while with Arbiter vs Rash but I tried using the carbine sometimes it work but I had to be on point with the timing. Otherwise I pretty much just block and try to attack afterwards.
edited to remove the accusation of “broken character” as I am receiving new potentially helpful information that I have yet to try
As I, like some others in this community, find Rash to be on the cheap side of things, I thought I’d ask this question here instead of making a new thread:
How do I beat Rash as Fulgore? I am continually opened up by what appear to be safe moves, I try to DP, to teleport away, to mix him up with projectiles, but nothing seems to work against this current iteration of Rash.
Any tips welcome (I’ll lose the rash fights I haven’t recorded after the patch so I’m afraid I won’t have proof until I fight a new Rash).
I wouldn’t say rash is broken, he’s definitely good and has some pretty nasty tools, but it’s way too early to call him broken imo. So what exactly are you having trouble with, and what exactly are these safe moves that you keep getting opened up by?
If he wrecking balls D+HP works. Outside of that I’d have to see the match in question and what your having issues with. Medium laser is still a good footsies tool. I haven’t had any issues with Rash as fulgore, but I haven’t played any Rash’s that I think are that great. I’m Killer, slightly above average (I win more than I lose in Killer but pretty much always lose against the top 32 finishers). With that perspective in mind I don’t feel I’ve played a rash as of yet who’s playing him well, I still mostly get matched up with Rash’s who like to wrecking ball or play over aggressive and unsafe.
As Fulgore you definitely have lots of options to punish him and stop his shenanigans.
Any wrecking ball is an auto punish by HP DP. Battering ram leaves him negative, being in your opponent’s face as fulgore at frame advantage is about all you want xD start your pressure with a light into cyber dash and go from there. If he pressed a button, you have a free combo. If he didn’t press a button, it means he knows he was - so he’ll respect, so you can go for throw/overhead/c.MK/6HP.
Whenever you block and your opponent is -, it’s your turn to move. Rash only has a reversal with meter, so you don’t have to worry about him doing reversals when he’s - until he does have meter, and once he does, just bait it out.
Rash is much more troublesome in matchups where the other character doesn’t have access to a DP, IMO.
Sightless, you aren’t the only one frustrated by him. A lot of times I seem to find myself in the corner with Rash using his Battlemaniac special, which seems to prevent me from doing much of anything and usually finds me stuck in block stun or in a combo. He also does seem to be safe on a lot of moves despite the frame data saying otherwise.
However, I do beat most of the Rash players I come across. Many players are very aggressive and open themselves up. That or they rely on their aggression to win matches rather than actual skill. As I play Jago, I try to use my fireballs against him to bait him to use Wicked Tongue followed by a well placed Wind Kick.
Rash players tend to be irritating: relishing taunts and double or triple Ultras. Hell, I’ve even seen it in the Shadow Lab. And that pattern was evident in a match today that I played. But that Rash player only took the first game and I handily took the next three. The taunting very quickly stopped.
As Fulgore, depending on where you are positioned in the stage, maybe firing Energy Bolt and then teleporting behind or just in front of him may work. If closer, Energy Bolt then Blade Dash. Then again, I haven’t played as Fulgore yet.
The frame data doesn’t say that he isn’t safe. It says that he is minus.
Rash is stupidly safe. If they know which buttons to push, you’re almost never going to find Rash in a punishable position.
But despite that, most of what he does is minus… so Rash has to give up his turn after a brief offense. Knowing what kind of Rash you are dealing with is important, and you should aim to find out. As Skryba pointed out, if he’s blocking after his offense, he knows he is minus. Go for a mix-up. If he’s mashing after his offense, go for something with priority or armor and put some serious hurt on him for even daring to think that he gets to push a button when it is your turn.
He still frustrates me, and I make a mistake against him which is to give him too much screen to play BS games, but I really don’t think he’s OP so much as he’s dumb.
I’ve tried to hit with HPDP on wrecking ball, but I can’t seem to get it to connect yet. Maybe just needs practice? Unfortunately I’d need a real rash player rather than a training opponent as I can’t easily set it up myself atm.
As for the other tips, thanks for those. Looking forward to trying when I can.
I’d be happy to fight you generally, if you like. I’m glad I’m not the only one who’s frustrated. Maybe, in this case, the frame data could indeed be misrepresenting things as they stand.
I seem to be stuck in the same circumstances as you. Since I can’t see when a player has previously picked rash, I can’t even pick Jago to try the strategies you suggest (at least not yet if they were to add an indicator for last picked character in that’d be useful possibly).
For those who want to know what I’m being opened up by, it’s mostly wrecking ball into combo/boot juggles/Battlemaniac combos.
The trouble is all the rash’s I face just wrecking ball as transport, which they can then land and grab me out of whatever I was trying whether that be a teleport, a throw, a dp, a blade dash…
I just think he needs to be a little more minus to teach players to think rather than win by aggression rather than skill as has been stated by a different poster previously.