He has two normals that are plus whist, the rest are safe, even sweep (-1).
Itâs really dangerous to give someone a plus on block tool that is forward advancing. In the corner (and probably midscreen too!) it means he can be plus forever, basically.
Itâs even worse if the forward advancing tool can be canceled into throw or jump.
If I block boot run cancel, I basically think I take damage 80% of the time against a good player, and I only get out with a really good guess. The mixups and the ability to keep me in block stun with throw and jump threats until I decide to panic reversal or shadow counter is incredibly strong.
If you donât have a meterless reversal, you are basically dead for sure. Like⊠letâs say at the start of the round, Rash jumps away and zips in. If Iâm not super on point to stop this, and I block a stand jab, I am basically destined to take damage, I think. I have no choice but to guess when he will throw and Iâll get counterhit into combo any time Iâm wrong and he can take as many of those safe guesses as he likes. Maybe some backdashes can get out but I imagine most wonât be able to. If Iâm in the corner (and backdash pushes me to the corner quickly), itâs donezo.
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But Rash canât stay plus forever if only the light boot allows you to remain plus (Iâm all for nerfing the medium one) because light boot will only keep you in range for three reps, after the third one rash actually has to close the distance slightly or the next rep will whiff meaning heâs using up a few extra frames to allow the run to move him forward, at this point he can be poked out of it normally. Plus light boot doesnât let him get anything if it hits so if a rash is over reliant on it theyâll miss a lot of combo opportunities.
It would be similar to Ritproâs headbutt > lk > lp > headbutt > lk > lp > etc. and that one is actually worse because with Rash if you eat the boot you get to escape, with Riptor if you eat the predator lk youâre still stuck in the frame trap since the following lp wonât combo.
You can interrupt predator LK after the headbutt with jab. Itâs not tight.
But the point is not that he will loop it forever (because if an opponent is going to loop it forever, then ok, Iâll block until I get meter and shadow counter, or Iâll always DP it). Itâs that being at plus frames is always very good in fighting games, so you have to be extremely careful which moves you let him be plus on. If he can jump and do zip, or throw, OR counterhit you with jab, thatâs super good, even if light boot doesnât allow for a juggle and even if after some number of reps he is marginally out of range for a frame perfect run cancel.
Maybe if it was the entire character you would have a point, but Rash is so good at so many things that you canât just reliably defend against this and have a gameplan. It just means Rash is excellent at all ranges; canât zone him, very hard to catch, amazing at the mid-range with his fantastic heavy buttons, and when he gets close youâre also dead.
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I only know that Rash has been in the oven for a long time. Being plus or safe on all of those moves is by design. I cannot complain if this was the intention all along.
Thatâs what Iâm saying, though⊠I think this is unintended/a bug. I seem to recall them saying in the reveal stream that run canceling boot should be negative, and the effects on gameplay are, I think, pretty clear.
Weâll see what they do moving forward⊠if they donât change it, then it was their intention I suppose. I just find it unlikely, and if they donât change it, there are going to be some very strong Rash players.
Just tested this, no you canât, thing is a frame trap meaning the whole sequence is another infinite frame trap.
As for the rest of that, I just donât see why Rash canât have one frame trap when you have characters like Jago and Fulgore trapping you for days.[quote=âInfilament, post:66, topic:9273â]
I seem to recall them saying in the reveal stream that run canceling boot should be negative
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No they specifically said itâs meant for frame traps on block. Heck they even demonstrated the one weâre currently discussing (though they didnât loop it into itself.)
This was definitely true in S2 and I donât see why it would have changed. Iâm not near my Xbox but Iâll test tonight.
To be clear, Iâm talking about after you block headbutt and she goes into Predator stance. So you hit jab before she does predator LK. If you block predator LK then yes, you have to respect the followup. But you can mash jab after blocking headbutt and Riptor has no option to beat it (and she canât block either). It just happens really fast so you have to be ready.
Itâs about the tools as a whole. Jago does not have Rashâs mobility and anti-zoning, which means him getting into that range is more difficult, not to mention his forward-advancing move is freely shadow counterable (ie, it cannot be mixed up with rapid fire throws or jumps like Rashâs can). To put it differently, Jago MUST commit to being shadow counterable to get plus frames, but Rash doesnât have to.
That would be far more compelling if fighting games never launched with busted characters.
I hardly think KI is any more special than any other fighter that has required rebalancing post launch ie most of them.
Maybe Rash is the single most balanced character in the game for all I know, but âtheyâve been working on him for a while now so he canât be brokenâ is a non-starter.
Rash seems ok I guess I donât think he is OP
he may seem good but donât take the tier list stuff to seriouslyâŠits mostly subjective drivel people take way to seriously and sheep to pro players if one says something a character they donât play cough sf5 cough (sorry went off track)
Hey, I donât like it either but what can you do about it. If itâs a bug then thatâs pretty sweet if you are a Rash player. I am not a Rash player. And I am not convinced he wasnât meant to be annoying.
Like I said wasnât sure whoch is why I added you can do it easily before armor kicks in because it is very fast. Does take timing and spacing like everything else
Yes he can I have had it happen to me. Maybe not from full screen through. You canât cancel wrecking ball into j.mk or any other normal until the whole animation ends emphasis on maybe not on full screen.
Yes you can if its not a grounded wrecking ball which doesnât go overhead at fullscreen or close to fullscreen. I have done it with all my characters except Arby.
Playing the game.
Already said in my last post to the other guy I misunderstood that and even before realizing said I had no comment because I never experienced it but still needed to be fixed.
I wasnât going to comment in this thread anymore but I was curious how silly and abusive I could make run cancel medium boot. So hereâs a fun fact. You can do max range s.HK into medium boot run cancel and it works. So you can start the gamesâ silliest frame trap from 3/4 screen.
Iâm working on creating a Rash shadow that literally does nothing but fish for medium boot into the corner juggle nonsense but the AI isnât doing the cancel fast enough even though my inputs are usually on point. Hopefully it will eventually work because itâs an interesting thing to fight against. Also if you start the round with HK into boot you can have them cornered in just two reps with just 1/4 bar of shadow or so. So against people without an invincible reversal you get four to five reps of this before they can do anything if they block the initial HK.
Yeah im mashing jab after blocking the headbutt but the predator lk always beats me out. If this wasnât in S2 then it was definitely added. I guess IG is ok with infinite frame traps?
Dude, I swear. Your posts are extremely informational, thanks for all the work you put it for all the great data and input.
Is this the âBetter nerf greninjaâ for Killer Instinct or what?
Rash is good, but you did not expect to a humanoid toad to be bad, right?
By this logic you can as well say âI expect humanoid toad from another game to be strictly-for-lols-tierâ. I mean, if community had enough experience to see these things as non-issue, okay, jokes on us. But right now it starts to smell of early MKX brand of balancing.
So I went and tested this. Headbutt to predator LK is a 3 frame gap that can be DPâd but is not vulnerable to mash jab. However it is fairly different because it doesnât loop into itself. Predator LK is not cancellable back into headbutt and if you try to loop it with her fastest reaching cancellable normal s.LK it trades with a jab and doesnât get a headbutt. If you just do raw headbutt after Predator LK it loses clean to mashed jabs. Also predator LK is a two hit normal that can always be shadow countered. Rashâs positive on block move is a single hit combo starting juggle. Itâd be more akin to raw headbutt being +1 on block which is nuts.
And if you donât think this is broken. . . well . . . youâre wrong.
You actually canât do it before the armor kicks in either. Unmetered Dragon Kick has zero invincibility and will get stuffed. Also Rash pressing mk after a correctly timed wrecking ball cannot be escaped with anything but meter by Aganos when in the corner. Doing a horribly timed wrecking ball and a horribly timed button press and then claiming that he can just crouch fierce it isnât a valid point. âYes he can I have had it happen to meâ Is not a valid point. Doesnât seem like youâve actually tested any of these things, you just beat a poorly spaced one from a random player, and claimed it works. The next sequence of your post shows you know probably nothing about Rash. Wrecking Ball is never an overhead, ever. Not sure what made you think it was. What you can do is follow up with jump mk which is thus an overhead because it is a jumping attack, and it also crosses up. If you dash under (which you can do) you will run into the other end of jump mk because it crosses up. This was tested with Kim because you claimed it was possible with Kim. And doing things at nothing BUT the farthest range possible and then claiming the options to beat it work is not a valid point either. You canât use the move at the least optimal range and then claim said options to beat it ALWAYS work. At most points a button after full screen wrecking ball will completely whiff or be easily anti airedâŠbecause itâs as far as possible. That doesnât mean you can always anti air the button after wrecking ball.
But predator lk is supposed to be +1 on block, it shouldnât be trading with jabs. Unless the frame data in game is inaccurate. Fulgore also has this problem, according to the game his light laser is supposed to be +2 yet follow up jabs it trade. And no I donât think thatâs broken, itâs the looping into itself thats a problem, but as a one time frame trap itâs fine.