To save you from having to search for my response I’m afraid I have to double post.
So in the Dragon Of The North DLC…
[SPOILER] After beating Date Masamune (who’s got Two different living weapon modes BTW) in 4 Attempts (I watched DSP Fail at it first so he died for me so I wouldn’t have to… just like Jesus)
its then revealed the person behind the whole thing was Maria… and the mission starts right at the Boss Fight so I wouldn’t have to run around like a headless chicken everytime I died… why it took them this long to try this is a mystery…
[/SPOILER]
anyway… the plan was simple… try to fight her fair and square… then if that fails exploit and cheese her to death like I did to The Dates…
When she used a jumping combo to track me in mid air 180º I knew this wasn’t going to be a fair fight so I I tried cheesing her with the Stamina Method.
When her living weapon got closest to running out I debuffed her with Sloth, Life Seal and Weakness while I buffed myself with Power Pill, Carnage and The Nioh Equivalent of Power Within… all that together with my Red Demon Set should have been enough to stagger her and cheese her to death… I also Onmyo And Ninjutsu Mystic Arts so I could buff myself with all 4 Buffs in less than the time it would take to to apply one buff without Mystic Arts.
Unfortunately at some point during the fight I saw her Stamina go Up while her living weapon was active and for this particular cheese to work it needs to run out… and it never did… even after my buffs and her debuffs wore off…
I died trying to punish her Attacks in Living Weapon State.
It’s lunch time so I will indulge you. But I only have time for things that are relevant and potentially useful.
Not really relevant but it leads me to…
I think this is illustrative of a challenge you are having with perception. The people you are talking with don’t need to win or lose. It’s not a question of beating you. I don’t want to beat you, or prove you’re wrong or force you to admit anything. But it seems like you are struggling - both with the game and with this conversation. I’m actually trying to help you.
Just as an anecdote if I say “I hate Glacius’s Instinct mode. I can’t break his armor and he just steamrolls me. It’s so frustrating! Why would they break the game this way. There’s nothing I can do about this!!!”
And Storm replies to me: “Heavy buttons beat armor cold. Just use heavies and don’t worry about trying to open him up. Knock him down with heavies and wait out his instinct.”
I have not “lost.” I have “won.” I now have better knowledge about how to overcome my problem. But if instead I pretend/insist that I knew all along heavies beat armor - and instead just say that I know it won’t work, then the problem is me. Just for clarity here’s two possible response in that situation:
Good response:
“I know heavies beat armor but I can’t seem to find an opening long enough to get a heavy move out that can get through his pressure. I’m playing as Sadira and I’m getting smothered. What are your thoughts on her heavies and gaps in Glacius’s pressure strings that might help me deal with this? Right now, I just can’t see it.”
Bad response:
“Nah, that ■■■■ doesn’t work. Her heavies are too slow to interrupt him. This game is ■■■■■■■■■ Like Dark Souls.”
The first response allows a continued discussion. The second response puts you in a position where you are committed to “proving” that there is no conceivable way to solve the problem or deal with what you are complaining about. “Winning” that argument actually commits you to continuing to have misery in the game. Whereas if you stop arguing and start listening you at least have a chance to change the way you are approaching the game. Reading this thread, you always seem to choose response in the style of number 2.
My good judgement tells me I’m wasting my time here and that you probably aren’t interested in this kind of advice. Which is fine. Totally up to you. But I thought I would offer it.
I appreciate the help understanding the game’s design… I’m going to ignore any and all help regarding how the game is played… thats just not what I’m focusing on… my bad… I should have known this is what I wanted when I first started complaining.
Don’t know how much damage I’ve done coming to this realisiation either to my Street Cred or to any relationships here but hopefully it doesn’t circle back and bite me in the ■■■ later on… I am sorry it was so messy getting to this conclusion.
You do realise unlike Fighting Games… the purpose of Souls games is to take everything you’ve learned and rendering it useless by changing the rules ?
This is what makes Helping people in this game difficult. Because now all of sudden: "Whoops… Living Weapon No Longer Runs out. " or Strikes From Heavy Stance Have Armor to prevent them from Staggering oh no wait… never mind… They don’t anymore (the Spearfall Skill Does though).
Nioh wishes it was half as consistent as Killer Instinct.
Now I’ve given you two specific examples from the game… you are more than welcome to walk away and claim some general line like :
That doesn’t acknowledge said specific examples and call it a day…
Nothing gets accomplished but atleast I can say I tried…
This doesn’t sound like me…
Thats me… No General Lines… I try to be as Detailed as I possibly can…
Look if you don’t want to read long texts then thats okay… really you shouldn’t have to and if I were to expect that from you then that would just make me an ■■■ hole… but this:
Isn’t me…
Thats just how you see me…
And therefore and that brings us to:
I should get a clicker for this sort of response.
I can’t tell when people aren’t being sincere, you know.
Edit:
Given how this thread has been going I just know someone is going to quote this part out of context without confirming what I mean… then right me off as scrub who just doesn’t want to “Git Gud.”
I wanted to phrase it better but I just don’t know how… So… whatever… see it however you see it… thats my punishment for sucking with my words…
The people talking to you on this thread are reasonable people. Don’t worry about your street cred.
I am sincere.
The anecdotal response is not intended to be a quote from you, but it’s an accurate portrayal of what I see in your responses. It’s not because I don’t read long threads. Trust me I’ve read it all. I’m just truncating out the meaningless stuff. The details you offer are usually deflections rather than evidence, and you don’t actually “prove” most of the things you claim to prove. In your own example the fact that Mario is not an rpg and doesn’t require stat management is something you present as a “counter” to my statement about choices. But it’s not. I was talking about choices in playing games - not rpg stat building choices. On purpose. So you can add ten paragraphs of detail about Mario not being an rpg if you want to, but all you are really saying is “nah, that’s ■■■■■■■■.”
If you want to talk understanding the game design, go back to your previous post and look at what you wrote about Team Ninja and their design philosophy. This follows the same non-standard logic as many of your other posts. Team Ninja does not “win” when you die. They “win” when you buy the game. They also “win” when you tell your friends how great it is and they should buy the game. With this type of game, their strategy for getting people to buy it and for getting them to recommend it involves convincing people that the game is hard (Nioh also sells based on the amazing graphics, samurai aesthetic and other things, but let’s focus on the difficulty so we don’t get too distracted). If the goal was to kill you they could easily leave you in a room with no doors or windows and then drop a rock on you. Boom. Dead every time. The devs win every time. But that wouldn’t make you enjoy the game. So what they are going for is a game that makes you feel like you’ve accomplished something when you win. Different games do this in different ways - many RPGs are actually very easy but provide a sense of accomplishment because you commit the time to complete the story. Some games challenge you to get high scores etc. Nioh and other Souls give you a sense of accomplishment not by killing you, but by forcing you to puzzle out a way to not die, and then combine it with a certain level of physical execution (hit the button at the right time etc.). I actually thing the level of “execution” required in these games is pretty low, but as you often point out timing is really important. Anyway, the “figuring out how to not die” is accomplished through a variety of strategies including builds, weapon choice and decision making in combat. Some of those strategies can be strictly dictated by the developers (you must hit jump right now or you die) while others are less strictly dictated (you could make a build with low damage but high life and win that way, or make a build with high damage and low life and win that way). But the fairness and democracy of those choices is not the best or only measure of good game design. If any build will work, people feel like their choices don’t matter. If only one build works, people feel like they don’t have any choices. The trick is convincing you that your choices matter but some options are better than others.
You spent a lot of time bemoaning the cheap “trap” deaths. Storm pointed out that once he figured the audio cues for enemies appearing off screen and preparing to attack you he hasn’t been killed by these trap sequences (forgive me if I’m fudging the details - I haven’t played the game). To which you replied (in paraphrase) “I don’t get killed by them either - I just think k it’s poor design.” They may or may not be poor design, but what I want to share with you is that the design insight is not “introducing cheap deaths.” The design is intended to introduce something, allow the player to overcome that and then consistently demonstrate mastery by avoiding these deaths. They aren’t actually trying to kill you so much as give you the opportunity to survive based on your knowledge, experience and execution. All games are like this. This is the difference between games and warfare. In warfare, my goal is to ensure to my best ability that you have no way to overcome the obstacles I put in your way. In game design, I want ensure that you CAN overcome those obstacles and have fun doing it.
Yeah, I know it’s nothing like FFT (unfortunately!). I’ve played some more traditional older RPG’s as well though, and the break and vulnerability system that Octopath uses seems interesting and varied enough for my tastes. I like a good solid old-style RPG combat system too so long as it’s done well
I know… When I needed help with KI… Storm was helpful to me…
But I also noticed that the Souls games turn anyone who’m I respect and whos oppinion I value into this unrecognisable unreasonable Elitist with no patience for Scrubs…
Sorry but this just what I noticed… in KI its Cinder’s Fired Mechanic has got Visual Issues but come to Dark Souls and Nioh and all of a sudden I’m being blamed for difficult to see attacks by the same person…
You think you’re being reasonable
I gave Storm an excersise to determine if he’s reasoning was actually sound… perhaps you should try it…
It doesn’t even surprise me that you don’t think you’re being unreasonable… its difficult to tell if you’re surround by others who are also being unreasonable. I believe its called A Tribal Reflex… one merely adopts the mindset of those around them and rejects all outside oppinions… regardless of whether they make sense or not.
I know what was… like I said… I gave two examples with some specifics… you reduced me to some whiny person who gives no examples for his complaints.
You’re oversimplification of me was Incorrect… as it should be if you don’t read properly… or worse… if I don’t explain it properly… I’l give you and everyone else here the benefit of a doubt and I’l just assume its my words that are failling me.
My recorder is busted… can’t record the proof…but then again I don’t need to. If I say a Boss Has Infinite Powered State after a long series of Bosses that didn’t have this feature then really…I don’t have to prove it… Because I know you can’t Disprove It… any attempt to do so is only going to prove to you I’m right… which is why Storm doesn’t offer any proof of his advice.
We can sit here and post videos of how Cheap/Perfect Nioh’s Design is… I’d rather appeal to your reasoning but if this must be video wars then so be it… I already know of footage that proves my point but I want to capture something that happened to me specifically… I think I know what’s wrong with my Recorder…so hopefully I can fix it.
I think the deaths are just the Cherry ontop of the ■■■■■■ Cake…
I think they win whenever you talk about the game… it would be worse for them if people bought it…played it…got ■■■■■■ off and never talked about it ever again…
Just a theory… I could be wrong…
Nobody has ever said this about Nioh… don’t get me wrong… but its got fierce competition from other PS4 Games
Now this I’ve heard before and I agree… but you are familiar with a Bottle Neck Right ?
This is a mistake The Souls Games make when they’ve crafted such an immersive experience and then the difficulty stops you from experiencing anymore of it… go ahead… say I’m wrong…I dare you.
This problem wasn’t so bad in Demon Souls Dark Souls were you could try a different route if you get stuck but Dark Souls II & III were more linear so if you were stuck then your only recourse was to experience the lore on Youtube…
Nioh is by far the worst incarnation of this problem that I’ve encountered…
Look this isn’t the first time…Team Ninja/From Software will say one thing but the game itself will say something else (not with words obviously)… actually every developer does this… so really I’m just being a jerk by singling out just two of them…
Yeah but they wouldn’t produce any sodium that way…The Goal is to make you suffer in the hopes that overcoming that suffering will produce a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction. Of course the problem isn’t their goal… its their methods… which I’ve been ■■■■■■■■ about this entire time. Furi has a sort of Similar goal but with near perfect execution… well… atleast thats the case for the first 5 Bosses of the game… I haven’t finished it yet… I probably never will because really I just don’t like it all that much… but I didn’t let that make me think the game was badly designed…
I’m glad you brought this up… because the key word is Time.
Not, effort, Not ingenuity, not even patience (the fun kind, not the forced to wait kind) or critical thinking… RPGs just feel like Grinds upon Grinds upon Grinds… that whole Genre Is Flawed… lol… I know I’m commiting social suicide by just saying that but you know what… ■■■■ it…I said it and I’m standing by it. Special Exceptions are granted to games developed by Super Giant Games for having the sense of decency for making games designed for people rather a Hamster running on a wheel…
That Almighty Grind…
In Dark Souls it is… it really is…
In Nioh at first it seemed execution heavy like DMC4 but after using a simple process of elimination I figured out the combination of buttons required to optimize my techniques… and while the execution was some what easy…it was also highly unnecessary. Developers really need to stop forcing Modal Systems to work when they don’t… Interlocking Button Modifiers Work… theres no excuse not to use them unless you just feel like being a Jerk.
Its all grinding.
The Weapon Level System + The Cost Of Soul Matching + The rairity of crafting materials all come together to make Tome’s forge useless until you hit the Level Cap… you can force them to by grinding but in normal play you’l go bank rupt and then be forced to part with your Gear anyway.
In Combat theres no decision making… all that crap in the Skills Menu will be rendered useless by the introduction of “Tougher” enemies… thats why respecced out all the parries for my Weapons… they’re useless even against parryable enemies…
And every boss has the same gimmick… Instakills… the only strategic boss I’ve encountered is Gasha-Dokuro… its the one and only time where I feel like I used a skill other than micromanaging Health Bars…
I think giving the Boss’ s so much health just hurts the Experience… because even after you figure them out they’re still there flailing at you and hoping that you get greedy… its lazy.
It is…
I think TN managed to some how achieve both… which of those things will happen is determined how much are or are not willing to grind… no grinding means you’l get locked into one or two builds while Grinding opens up pretty much everything…
I don’t remember that particular exchange with Storm… however the reason why this doesn’t work is because of how they designed the Dodge Mechanic… which I’ve already explained… If you can’t see the enemy then you won’t know in which direction to dodge…
Remember analogy about the dude who drove his car with a wrench…
This is it… its a common Dark Souls trap you people like pulling on us… and I don’t blame you… it usually works… just not me (anymore). Much like how the driver used his skill to make up for whats wrong with the car… Storm is using his skill to make up for whats wrong with the game… if he can filter out the games other sounds, while fending off enmies that are still on camera and determine which direction to dodge then Great !!! FOR HIM… such sorcery is beyond the capabilities of the average human being.
The “I can do it so it must be fair.” Argument is played out.
I know you’re going to gloss over they keypoints of my argument and accuse me of the samething “I can’t Do It so its badly designed”. So let me repeat myself.
The Sound Cues for enemy attacks don’t happen in isolation so in frantic mob fights its just gets drowned out by other sounds include the game’s Bombastic Music whenever there are poweful Yokai in the mix. The lack of sufficient I-Frames on the dodge mechanic either requires perfect precision when dodging… humans are not perfect… or to physically get out of the way of attacks…which is pretty hard to do when the enemy isn’t onscreen… also you can only dodge in 4 Directions when locked on… the camera issues are only made worse against regular sized enemies with the lock on point positioned at the enemie’s mid section causing the camera to tilt down if ypu stand too close…obscuring all your surroundings.
I know you’re just going to ignore all that and say I’m wrong because of some non specific thing I’m not doing and then pat yourself on the back on what a remarkably outstanding reasonable person you are…
Sorry… you’re not…
Also stop trying to help me play the game… I told you this isn’t why I came here…I just want to understand why they did what they did… unfortunately I can’t get there because you seem to be forgetting How From Software/Team Ninja likes to setup these cheap moments to make sure they kill you atleast once…
No need to help me… I can figure out how to beat these sections on my own… or with youtube or I can just flatout cheat if the situation calls for it… I’m just here to try and understand why…
You know what they say about “Intensions” right ?
I’m not judging Nioh by what they (Team Ninja) intended to do… I’m judging them by what they actually did… maybe thats what I’m missing… still it doesn’t justify what they did.
You know how I know this is not true… whenever I watch people play these games and brag about how skilled they are at spotting traps and ambushes…I always make a note of when the expect a trap but one doesn’t happen.
Why is this important ?
Well if I claim to be master detective and can get any criminal to confess that would be pretty amazing right ? Until you see my method… which is just to lock every suspect in a room and yell at them until they all crack. Then I simply filter out all the false confessions and pat myself on the back on my amazing interrogation skills that always make criminals confess.
This is how Souls/Nioh works… call everything out as a trap… ignore the instances when you’re wrong and praise all the instances where you’re right…
People seem to think they’re being Cautious but really they’re being Paranoid… and its not their fault.
These games will hide any clues that would make these traps look dangerous… yeah if theres an item near a ledge then there is a danger of falling off but its important to note the difference between the danger of falling by accident and the danger of being pushed off by some ■■■ hole hiding silently out of view. In these games the actual danger… the real danger from the correct threat is always Hidden. The setup just wouldn’t work otherwise.
I’m guessing they setup the traps this way so that you will blame yourself when that ■■■ hole jumps out and pushes you off a cliff. This is that Hindsight/Retrospective Bias I was talking about earlier…
This is what leads to the False Positive Assumptions because sometimes the game will use that same setup except without the jerk hiding out of view.
The game programs you into thinking of the worst case scenario…
So now everytime you see a ledge, rather than observing to assess the danger, you’re thinking “Whats the worst possible thing that could happen” and then proceeding accordingly. Regardless if there actually is a threator not.
Its Paranoia, Not Observation… if you’re wrong… then you don’t really lose anything.
For me specifically I try to resist this brain washing… I’m sorry but I absolutely don’t accept responsibility for any death by being pushed off a ledge if the setup gave no indicatiom that I could die from being pushed when I’m expecting to die from falling off by myself.
I don’t turn every blind corner under the assumption that there might be an enemy there behind some boxes or whatever… I resist the paranoia effect as best as I can… unfortunately as my XP Builds up and I start to get homesick from being away from a Bonfire for so long then I fall into the Paranoia trap…expecting danger at every turn rather than observing if its actually there… its harder to ignore I’f the game is going punish me for it.
That being said… did Team Ninja/From Software fail ? Nope… I don’t think so… they set out to make you think you’re an anti-trap master who cannot be douped. They succeeded right ? Doesn’t matter how they pulled it off…
So really the problem is me… I’m just not Gullible enough to appreciate and enjoy the setup… its still not my fault though…
And when a game allows you to lose the very resource you need to keep up with the ever increasing Power Curve… then thats Bad Game Design… to be more specific its called a Positive Feedback loop (The Snowball Effect)… failing causes you to fall behind which grants you you fewer resources to improve your character which then increases your chances of failing which grants you fewer resources to upgrade your character and increases your chances of failing… and so on.
This doesn’t mean the game will be impossible to beat… a game that broken will never see the light of day… the issue here is it becomes less practical to beat.
Its alway important to make the distinction between Possible and Practical when talking about whats good or bad game design… from every “discussion” I’ve ever had about these games… they never factor in Practicallity… which explains why they think its always fair
@FallofSeraphs76
Finally beat that boss… The Cheese methods don’t work if the living weapon dosn’t run out. No stagger means no Paralysis Loops or Poison Attrition.
So did the one thing I normally do… Low Stance Single Hit Punishes… I don’t have to tell you how only attacking once from low stance gives god awful damage… the health bar basically doesn’t move.
But sure enough… 2 Minutes later all those tiny pokes added up… I had a full health bar so I went High Stance to finish her… William misses the punish and I get caught in a combo… like I was ■■■■■■■■ Bricks !!! I respecced my character yet again so I only had the bare minimum stats for my Armor Set Bonuses… how I didn’t die or get guard broken is pure luck…
I stayed in High Stance… got the punish this time and she finally lost…
I think this was only possible because I min maxed the crap out of my stats… apparently there wasn’t enough Glass in my Glass Cannon…
Very unfortunate… I was hoping She could stop me so I could finally let this game go… but nope… beat her… and more missions pop up. Ugh…
I’ve mostly bowed out of this aspect of the conversation, but this brought me back.
Again, you seem to be confusing what you like for “good game design.” There are plenty of people out there (literally millions of them) who absolutely love grinds, be they for loot or XP or Secret Boss Nzarghahul. Some people love the experience of being your “hamster on a wheel”, and it is precisely for those people that RPG developers are making their games. They are designing the systems and mechanics to appeal to precisely the sorts of guys and gals who enjoy that thing you hate.
Look, I don’t realistic racers. I’m not a gearhead and I don’t especially like cars, and the whole sub-genre just seems too tame if my goal is to cut loose and have some fun. I’ll rock out on an F-Zero or a Mario Kart all day, but I’m good never touching another Gran Turismo or Forza in my life. That doesn’t make them bad games, and it doesn’t make their mechanics flawed. Just because I don’t derive any special satisfaction from executing a perfect drift behind a car to take the lead doesn’t invalidate the implementation of the system - it means that the game is not for me. It’s not the end of the world, and I don’t need to prove to anyone that I’m right and GT and Forza are trash games.
There’s a lot that’s wrong with your giant post (how and when to use audio cues for one), but I’ll avoid getting into any of that and just pick out these bits here, which I think are pretty illustrative:
And there, friend, is the purest distillation imaginable of why you get pushback. It’s not because everyone who touches a Souls game is an unreasonable elitist with no patience for scrubs. It’s because you, in your own words, simply refuse to learn the lessons the game wants to teach you. You won’t respec because reasons and “bad game design”, you won’t use a summoner’s candle to retrieve your death spirit because reasons and “bad game design”, and you apparently won’t acknowledge that you can and are likely to be pushed off ledges because reasons and “bad game design”.
Instead of fighting with you about any of that though, please allow me to offer some sincere if unsolicited life advice:
Few things elicit less sympathy or understanding than a refusal to take responsibility for one’s outlook and/or actions. People often don’t mind helping, but there are very few individuals out there who will invest time into someone who repeatedly bashes their head into a wall while blaming the wall for being there.
If one person says something about you, you can ignore it. If two people say something about you, start to pay attention. If three or more people say something about you, then it’s time to take an honest look at yourself. It could be that everyone else is wrong, but at the very least take the time to do a sincere evaluation of yourself to see if maybe they’re right.
Probably the least important piece of advice, but one that I genuinely hope you’ll take. Stop playing games and genres you know you don’t enjoy. Life is short and it’s a big, beautiful world out there - spend your time doing things that you love with people you love. Don’t waste hours of your life plugging away on a videogame you hate so that you can more effectively argue with people you’ll never meet. Free time is precious, and becomes more so the older you get…don’t waste it in some masochistic quest to prove your theories on what constitutes fairness in gaming.
No snark, no sarcasm. Just some things I hope you’ll honestly consider.
Hey if they love it then let them have it… They definitely don’t outnumber the the people who hate them… or at the very least… the people annoyed by them.
However my criteria for Bad Game design isn’t based on who loves or hates what… its based on Purpose. Make no mistake… nobody actually grinds because they want to tediously do the same crap over and over again… They love grinds for the Rewards that come out of them… the loot and XP and all that jazz.
This is difficult to design for… because if you just give the player that stuff then they won’t appreciate them… but making them suffer alil for it is not right either.
When people enjoy the process of grinding with out the expectation of getting something back as a reward… then I’l be willing to let this go… so far I’ve encountered no such instance…
Hey some people like watching women step on Adorable Animals with Stilletos… some people Dog Fights… some people like Ariana Grande (I honestly can’t stand her) .
Theres alot of stuff out there that people like.
Ah yes… The Driving Sim… yeah I’ve been trying to penetrate that one for a while now Forza 4 had goofy physics and Project C.A.R.S. won’t run on my machine for some reason. I have played some DiRT 4 and while they got the physics right somewhat I never played with all the Knobs and Dials… I think for that sort of thing I need to stick with a single vehicle but they keep changing Disciplines on me… also DiRT 4 doesn’t count because its a rally sim…
Me too… well actually its Sonic Allstars for me but you get the idea…
It doesn’t help that Sonic Allstars is so well designed…
I’m really getting tired of being accused of thinking something is bad because I don’t like after I describe in detail whats wrong with it.
You don’t ?
Why ?
Actually don’t answer that… its an invalid question… still though… I thought anyone would get a kick out pulling something like that off…
LoL… yeah… and ?
If a game teaches you to torture people does that give it immunity from critism ?
Besides People say they teach careful observation… not relentless paranoia so even based on that alone I’m still right… no… wait… am I ? Hang on…
Now unlike Torture, I can’t say with certainty that its bad to teach people not to trust anything…not really… alil unethical maybe but its not outright evil like Torture…
I also can’t say its wrong for them to use trickery to give the illusion of of careful observation… as I said before… alot of Game Designers use trickery for the player’s sake… and they should.
Its not Team Ninja/From Software’s fault that I just can’t get into it the way other people can. I mean… they tried… I barely saw it myself.
Hmmmm…
Yep… I Got Nothing… no leg to stand on…
As long as it keeps working then the Design is Sound as far as I can tell… [quote=“STORM179, post:115, topic:18485”]
You won’t respec because reasons and “bad game design”, you won’t use a summoner’s candle to retrieve your death spirit because reasons and “bad game design”, and you apparently won’t acknowledge that you can and are likely to be pushed off ledges because reasons and “bad game design”.
[/quote]
LoL… I never said any of that…
I don’t think I’ve ever said anything was Bad Design without explaining why its bad design… thats why my posts are so god ■■■■ long… because I have break down why and how they went wrong.
There’s nothing wrong with my outlook… other than the fact Team Ninja refuses to acknowledge that people with my outlook actually exist… it seems you didn’t either. Did you read that Gamasutra Article I linked to you ? It explains the existance of such people… now I can explain it to you myself but you won’t like hearing it from me.
Is the camera colliding with the wall ? If so then yeah… I’l blame that wall for being there. Thats bad Level Design.
Are these people from Different perspectives ? Nope… if 100 Souls Fanboys blame me for getting pushed off a ledge… then thats exactly one perspective… believe me… you’re not going to convince alot of well adjusted non Souls players that half of the game’s shenanigans are fair…
Did you you try that excersise I suggested ?
Because if you did then you would already know if everybody else is wrong and I happen to be the only person who’s right…
It wasn’t so long ago when the FGC had this obnoxious attitude that the best way to learn fighting games was to threw you against an expert player and have him pummel you to death over and over again… alot of people had that attitude.
This is why you shouldn’t determine if how right you are based on how many people agree with you… don’t get me wrong… ganging up on people works… its an effective way to win an argument… Gallileo couldn’t convince the people around him that the world was infact, round and that the earth rotates around the sun and not the other way around… he could have if they argued on the merits of his research but people didn’t want to do that…
I find myself in a similar situation because I’ve yet to get any counter arguments on the specifics of the things that I’ve found wrong with the game… if you can’t or won’t do that then you’re not going to get me to change my position… you saying theres something wrong with my outlook and other stuff is just you trying to get around not having to list specifics from the game itself… sorry… sticking to my guns unless you can do that… or are willing to do that.
You know… I would love to… and yet here I am… it can’t be helped. Sorry…
Hmmmm… I didn’t even notice your sincerity… usually I just get made fun of.
There’s a word for someone who, when faced with the reality that huge numbers of people disagree with him, comes to the conclusion that the whole world is unreasonable, and they are fine. (Hint - you’re not Galileo.)
Your last two comments are incredibly arrogant and downright offensive. You tested to see if people were being reasonable? Lol. Listen, you’re not qualified to test if people are being reasonable. You aren’t half as clever as you seem to think you are and you clearly aren’t learning anything. You offer basically no support for your statements and what support you offer is filled with absurd leaps of logic and changes of premise. Then you just plonk down “given” statements that are not just untrue, they are not even reasonable suppositions. Number of words is not correlated to strength of argument. People love RPGs for a lot of reasons. You are not the authority on what people love or are allowed to love just because you want to pretend you have the ability to set universal law for what games are good. I ENJOY grinding in RPGs because I enjoy the battle mechanics of them. If the game doesn’t have a good or fun battle system then I don’t enjoy it. The best example of this is Monster Hunter. That is the grindiest game in the history of grinds. But the battle mechanics are so fun and engaging that grinding is the joy of the game. Grinding is WHY people play it and if they took that out people would complain.
Arguing that 100 souls fans opinions don’t matter because that’s just one opinion and (without asking anyone or demonstrating any proof of this) your opinion speaks for the millions of other people in the world is ridiculous. You keep bringing up that people aren’t offering specific enough arguments to your diversionary tactics. None of your specifics are relevant. For example I can pick any number of things you said: Looking both ways before you cross the street is not “paranoia” just because sometimes there are no cars coming. The same way checking for traps in places they don’t exist in a souls game is not “paranoia.” It’s being careful and winning the game. Acting as though there may be a trap when there isn’t one isn’t a “loss” or “failure.” Because the game isn’t about knowing where every trap is. The game is about surviving. You have set up a completely artificial goal (never having a false positive on trap detection) that has nothing to do with the actual goal of the game, or the gamer, JUST because if you establish this artificial goal it gives you a metric that can justify your opinion that Souls games are bad. Your entire point of view on that is completely unreasonable and ridiculous. That’s because, unlike you claim, you don’t have a set of criteria determined beforehand that you are applying to assess whether a game is good or bad. Your opinion is that the game is bad and then after the fact you are trying to collect justification for your opinion. This leads to all kinds of errors that are well known (and actually studied as a Science) including selection bias (“cherry picking”) and discrediting contrary evidence. Your word count doesn’t save you from the fundamental reality that you are doing EXACTLY what storm points out. What you like is good, what you don’t like is bad but your opinions aren’t opinions, they’re facts. And look here’s a bunch of meaningless statements PROVING your opinions are facts. But opinions are never facts. They just aren’t - no matter how much you type. The fact that no one can be bothered to pull out every erroneous statement from your huge posts and wrote “this is wrong because…” for each of them doesn’t suggest that you’re right. It suggests that you’re missing the point. I am not trying to prove your opinion is wrong. I’m trying to explain to you that it’s an opinion. The details are totally irrelevant.
I’m a biologist. I have spent a lot of time dealing with creationists arguing against evolution. They use exactly the same tactics - “if you find a watch in the desert, you don’t assume it appeared spontaneously. You assume someone made it. Therefore…”. The flaw in their argument has nothing to do with the details of watches, or deserts. It’s in the supposition that somehow biology is like a watch in the desert. It isn’t. What you’re doing is the equivalent of saying “but you haven’t answered my specific question about the watch.” Your opinions are not facts. Exploring all the various details of your opinions to point out where they are wrong is ridiculous. The error isn’t in the details it’s in the supposition that your opinions are based on fact. I’m not telling you to like Souls games. You don’t like them (obviously). That’s not wrong. What’s wrong is saying you don’t like them because they are objectively bad games and you can prove it. That’s childish.
The supposition of all of your statements about RPGs is that the tens of millions of people enjoying literally hundreds of RPGs (the 3DS is the most popular console in history and is basically a platform for RPGs) in the world are all WRONG to enjoy them because they are bad games. Because you don’t like them. It’s sociopathically arrogant and completely unreasonable.
I have met lots of people like you. For whatever reason they have come through life thinking they are the smartest guy in the room, AND that being the smartest guy in the room is somehow the most important thing. They’re right, everyone else is wrong and “winning” every discussion is the most important thing - insulting people, distorting reality, jumping to absurd and unreasonable conclusions - all justified because they are the smartest guy in the room (By the way, you never responded in any meaningful way to my suggestion that you stop viewing every discussion as win/lose. You just said “I know.” Because you have to say you know everything). Somehow admitting that their opinions are opinions and not facts is an ego destroying realization that is too hard to contemplate. Then, at the end of the evening, they are standing alone in the corner wondering why no one wants anything to do with them. And invariably they conclude that everyone else is unreasonable. Flash forward to Travis Bickle or Holden Caufield - thinking they are the hero of the piece as they create their own misery.
Good luck. It’s a hard path you’re setting for yourself. I have given it my best shot, and will be leaving the thread. If you would like to declare that this is a victory for your logic feel free. I hope that it gives you comfort.
Against my better judgment, I’ll engage for a bit longer.
This is based on no real number or evidence, as this is not something you can objectively measure. What we can know is that Diablo III sold 30 million units, World of Warcraft has 12 million subscribers, and that FFX sold 9.3 million units. The number of people who hate or are annoyed by the mechanics of these grindy games is irrelevant - the important thing is that in each case there were millions of people who did enjoy the mechanics, and were willing to pay their hard-earned money to play and will likely come back for the next go-around for each series.
Another evidence-free claim based on your own feelings on the matter, because again, this is not something that you can objectively measure. I can say pretty clearly from my own anecdotal experiences however that there are absolutely people who grind because the grind itself is enjoyable to them. I didn’t put 600 hours into the Mass Effect 3 multiplayer because the Harrier X was so much better than the Harrier VIII - I put that much time in because the game’s multiplayer encounters were damned fun.
This is one of the more egregious examples of something you’ve been doing throughout this thread Lulekani. You don’t get to just run off on random tangents completely orthogonal to the point being made and expect people to follow you or substantively engage. You’ve devoted hundreds of words to making points that are not at all related to the very specific things people are saying to you. No, I’m not going to point-by-point rebut a bunch of tangents that have nothing to do with what I said in the first place - I’ve better things to do with my time.
And the relative merits of how Nioh achieves its difficulty is not related to torture, and checking the alcoves of a ledge because the game likes to push you off of them is not analogous to paranoia. Have some sense of proportion man
You literally said all of those things. Like, it wasn’t even that long ago dude… For clarity’s sake, here’s what I said you did:
Now here are your words throughout this thread:
Like, what am I supposed to with this man? You can’t say a bunch of stuff and then just turn around and be like “I never said that.”
