Mortal Kombat 11

Off-Topic
885

Man I’m so glad I waited to play those games until after they patched the ending. I still don’t get why they thought the original ending was a good idea in the first place. Get people invested over the course of three games, only to do that. I’m not saying the ending had to be all roses and happy and what not. Far from it. But to go THAT route? Seemed awfully odd.

Honestly, I’m still kind of sore about the remake. You announce a game, and then what, four years later it’s still in limbo? If this was just a fluke sort of thing, I wouldn’t mind as much, but Square Enix needs to drastically change how they do business. If Resident Evil 2 can get announced and then released in the same year, I don’t see why FF7’s remake should be THIS far behind.

I get that it’s a much bigger game, but four years and nothing to show for it publically, no events, no updates (unless you count Tabata leaving)… It’s just poor management and it’s not something that should be happening in an age where a lot of games are announced and released in the same year.

Also, and this is just me, but I think changing the gameplay as dramatically as they talked about and showed originally is a garbage thing to do to fans of the original. I get that turn-based RPGs aren’t all the rage right now (though they seem to be making a comeback of sorts), but changing it to an action RPG? That’d be like Konami announcing a beautiful new remake of Metal Gear Solid and changing it in to a first person shooter with no stealth elements.

Yeah, shooters are popular, and as far as RPGs go, action RPGs are definitely more popular than turn-based, but if you want that in your portfolio, then make a new iteration in that series with that style of gameplay. Don’t remake a classic that popularized a genre and change it’s gameplay to the point where it’s more or less a different genre.

I won’t use the phrase “slap in the face” here, but I think it’s kind of a crappy bait and switch, intended or not. It’s like “yay it’s the beautiful Final Fantasy 7 I always wanted… Except it’s not. Not in the least.”

Yeah, it’s definitely difficult. Everyone prioritizes things differently. I’d personally like to see a nice representation of each of MK’s eras and I’d like to see a few characters brought back that didn’t show very well in their original game because I think they’re actually wonderful now at dreaming up fun movesets for characters and giving them cool looks and what not. So it’d be great if we got maybe three new characters, three MKX newbies, three 3D era characters, Skarlet, and then split the rest of the cast among the trilogy mainstays and requested characters.

But that’s just me. I have to reconcile with the idea that a lot of people simply write the 3D era off as trash or “the dark days of MK.” Those people don’t care that NRS could make a much more compelling Fujin or Reiko or Kai or Nitara or Havik or whoever. They see no point in even bothering with them at all. Not when they can have more staple characters or characters they like.

Similarly, I know some people didn’t like the new characters introduced in MKX. Some thought Kotal Khan was boring and some utterly despised the kombat kids. I’ve even seen them compared to what Namco did with Soul Calibur V. I personally don’t see it that way at all and honestly really enjoyed the MKX newbies, but that’s just me.

So while I’d love to see a nice, balanced roster with a nice amount of change from the MKX roster, I know there are others out there that still want a vast majority of the roster to come from MK1, MK2 and some of MK3.

Which is what kinda makes me worried for MK. When I go on MK fan sites, I usually see a lot of people wanting more 3D era characters and for some MK1/MK2 mainstays to at least take a game off, even if it’s just to make room for different trilogy characters.

But if NRS listens to the majority of people that just want the same characters game after game, and we only get about 10 real changes to the roster from one game to the next, I just think there’s a chance that both casual and hardcore fans will burn out on this series. It’s a long shot given how much other stuff they tend to change, but who knows.

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886

If that does happen then I’ll have to wait till he’s DLC before I buy the game.

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887

Point 1: You’re still paying for them to be in a new game. You don’t have to though, you can just go back and play the old games they’re in, if you want to play them without having to put more money into it.

If you buy a lamp from a designer, and that designer decides to make another lamp that’s a new version of his former design, you’re not entitled to get that new lamp too just because you already bought an earlier version.

Point 2: And you will get a full game for those money. But it doesn’t make you entitled to whatever extra content they’re making.

Just because you bought the lamp doesn’t mean you’re entitled to the coffee table the designer made later afterwards, just because it was made for the lamp to stand on.

888

I think the general consensus is that this project went on the back burner behind Kingdom Hearts 3 (probably because of Disney). I think Square might only have one dev team.

889

I tend to come down pretty hard on arguments centered around “why should I pay,” just because I really believe we have a choice about it. But I understand you didn’t really mean it the way people are interpreting it. In the end, it comes down to value - are you getting good value for the money you’re spending. Although people all over the internet make grand proclamations about the absolute value of things, the truth is a huge component of value rests with the individual. For example, every single one of us knows that MK11 will be on sale two years from now for 50% or less of the current price. Each one of us has to decide the value of being able to play the new hotness right at release, the value we place in the state of the online community, learning the game at the same time as our friends and the FGC etc against the extra money. All this in the context of our personal schedules, personal finances etc. So it might be well worth it for me to preorder the deluxe $100 version while it might only make sense for you to buy the base game for $20 in 2021. Neither of us would be “wrong,” even though our choices are different. Something the internet doesn’t seem to understand…

As far as old character DLC, the developers are in a bind. The response to nostalgia characters is always overwhelmingly positive. While the response to new characters is usually more tepid and is uncertain at best. From a business point of view, then, they would be better off cramming all the newbies in the base game and then selling he old characters as DLC. I’m afraid we will see things going that direction more and more.

MK is probably the boldest fighting game franchise (other than KI) in terms of modifying and updating characters throughout the franchise. Tekken is by far the worst with Soul Calibur right behind. I have very little experience with SNK but they seem to fit the Capcom mold. Tournament players can tell you all about frame changes and incremental damage adjustments but the truth is anyone who played Terry Bogard in Fatal Fury 1 or Ryu in SF 2 is going to be comfortable with those characters in all the iterations between them and now.

I actually think this is a tragedy. NRS tried to advance their game through a generation in exactly the right way. Granted, the fact that all the normal moves for every character are nearly identical (trip, roundhouse, uppercut, silly crouching kick etc) makes character design a bit easier for MK than say Tekken, all of the new fighters in MK X were very, very distinct from their elder inspirations. You can’t tell me Takeda plays anything like Scorpion or that… uh, bow kid, plays like Lung Lao or Lou Kang. Cassie Cage is a pretty brilliant mix of Johnny and Sonya who plays nothing like either. Sadly, people say they want new stuff but the really don’t. SF III was a commercial flop because it was mostly new characters. Although it’s worth noting some of those characters are now franchise favorites. The lesson being introduce a few new characters each time and then pick the most popular to carry forward.

Off topic regarding FFVII - I am forced to conclude that project management at Japanesngame developers is largely pretty terrible. I think SE (probably correctly) sees that remake as a niche game and are devoting resources to it proportionately. The nice thing about a nostalgia driven remake is that nostalgia only grows over Time. So they are probably in no hurry. As far as the timing of the announcement I think they were pressured to announce by Sony. As far as RE2 - I don’t get this at all. How many times are they going to remake RE2 when they could make a new game? So bizarre to me. But apparently gamers want to play the same game over and over but with prettier graphics. What are you gonna do?

2 Likes
890

I mean. As a big fan of PlayStation games, one of the things that just turns me off is the art style of early 3D games. It’s actually prevented me from playing a lot of them. I want to see these classics remade so that I can look at the art an appreciate it, not be upset by how bad it is.

891

I understand you how you feel. But in my opinion, I think DLC works to help make up for not having them in the game. and for me right now. DLC will be a blessing sense SC-VI left out Aeon and MK11 is likely doing the same.

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892
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893

point 1 unabandoned: where did i say i dont want devs to get paid? im just griping i gotta shell out money for old characters, which i wont. i got other things to blow money on

point 2: if i dont like it, i wont buy it. if i like it, i will buy it. it really is that simple

@anon39655210

well, yeah

what you and the other guy arent thinking about is that if i do not like something…i dont buy it. but i am gonna gripe about it, in a way of “well that sucks, i gotta pay extra for blanka, etc oh well such is life” and then i go on about my day because its not exactly world ending. i want to know where being entitled comes in to play if i decide to just not buy it

thank you, you sir understand where i am coming from. all im doing is complaining why things are the way they are. it is correct that nostalgia is a really good marketing ploy to move dollars. it sucks that its come down to this, but that is our reality. so, i choose to just instead miss out on something i may find enjoyment in. there is always something else to find that i can spend my free time on.

ive missed out on a ton of games due to my personal situation and i often wait for that big steam sale to grab something at a really cheap price. as for MK11, i may buy it day 1 if it makes sense at the time it lands in stores. its quite possible i wont even buy it at all even if i do want to, because of RL obligations/responsibilities that may arise at the time. if im really really busy, and i find myself sitting on the gaming PC for 30min tops im not gonna drop a single dime on any game until things calm down or i got extra cash to spend. man i think what i said got overblown and it really isnt anything lol.

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894

Agreed. They kept both generations in the game and they did a great job of making the character feel and play uniquely. I think the kombat kids get some hate due to how snarky they tend to be and how bland Jaqui’s moveset is viewed as being, and while sure, there are some mildly annoying aspects to them in the story mode, I still like them a lot for a variety of reasons.

As far as the rest of the new cast went, I thought Kotal Khan, Erron Black, D’vorah and Ferra Torr were some of the most well designed new characters NRS put out since MK2. So the idea that NRS somehow feels like they may have overdone it with the number of new characters in MKX and now feel more compelled to just play the hits, well yeah… That really sucks.

Yeah, I think part of it is a kneejerk reaction to anything that’s unfamiliar. There’s comfort in knowing you already like something and trying to decide whether you like something knew is a little harder. Plus with how many MK characters there are, it almost feels like every character has to somehow justify their existence in the game, so even the smallest issues get blown up by people as proof that the Kombat kids suck and we should’ve gotten Noob, Jade, Nightwolf etc instead of these snot-nosed millennials (for example).

For me, I think it all goes back to balance. Sure, some characters will be left out and the fans of those characters will be tearing their hair out. That’s going to happen no matter what. But if you take some of everything, listen to what the majority of the audience wants from this era or that era and try to make as many people happy as possible, well… I mean, that’s really all they can do.

I think Capcom learned with SF III that you can’t remove THAT many characters people love. NRS may have learned the same thing here with MKX even though it was only eight characters. Maybe you save the Ferra Torr design for the next game. Maybe you drop D’vorah or Erron Black down to DLC instead of putting them on the main roster (and I say that as someone that freaking loves Black’s character design and likes D’vorah’s as well). And perhaps just as importantly, you find more ways to balance the story so that it’s not quite so heavily focused on the new characters, which effectively relegated many series staples (Sub Zero in particular) to bit parts, while others (such as Kung Lao) didn’t even show up at all.

I certainly don’t envy the work NRS has to do in putting a roster together, but I do think that there are some slight improvements they could make in terms of balance that might help ease fans in to new characters without making some feel quite as alienated because their character didn’t make it in. Ya know, more story balance, more roster balance, and perhaps not showing them characters in the story that they won’t be able to play as. It wasn’t a big deal back in the 90’s, but apparently it’s a big deal now.

It’s certainly possible. Personally, I’d be happy with just a graphical upgrade, but they seem to have a bit more ambition than that, so we’ll see if it even comes together. The management, I’ll certainly agree though, is terrible. Regardless of whether Sony pressured them or not, remaking a game shouldn’t put you where they’re at four years later. That’s just beyond ridiculous, especially given how long it took to finally put out Final Fantasy XV.

I don’t know who’s currently managing the series, but gameplay issues aside, they simply need to figure out a way to put games out more quickly while still maintaining a solid level of quality. I get that it’s not the PSone era anymore and we’re not going to get three numbered FF games in one generation again, but they honestly don’t even seem like they have a roadmap anymore. Not to VII’s remake, not to FF XVI… It kinda sucks watching a series you grew up on and enjoyed so much turn in to what it’s become. But yeah, that’s all off topic and a conversation for another day. :slight_smile:

895

With the way you said what you did, it made it sound like if they were going to do an old character, is HAD to be base game. And that DLC should only be used for newcomers. I take issue with that sense a character is a character and they usually have to build them up from scratch anyway in each game regardless if they get altered.

As for point 2, sense that was your response, would you still play games if the base industry standard price was $90-$100 for every game?

My guess is no. And that’s true for a lot of people. Sure, it sucks that this hobby is so expensive. But I’d rather pay them and keep them around then loose them completely because of increased production costs.

I pay for these games at full price because I don’t want to loose them. To many of the things I loved went the way of the Dodo because the studio couldn’t make money off of them. I don’t want that to happen here. Or anywhere else.

And lastly. You know what would solve all of these roster problems… a big roster. With people as frantic as they are about “justifying” inclusion and making sure all their faces make it. My response has always been to just widen the number of characters and satisfy both camps.

Sure. When your party gets really big and you want to let some new folks or long lost friends in, you could just kick out a few people there. Or you could just move the party to a bigger location and have everybody!

Honestly though. I’m not super attached to MKX’s newcomers. Sure, they looked cool when they showed them off, but none of them really stuck to me and became favorites. They kind of just came and went. Like, D’vorah and Erron Black has cool designs, but the gameplay for them wasn’t all that exciting and their personalities didn’t grab me.

896

So I’m pumped for this game to come out. It looks like it will be a wonderfully messy additionnto the series. 2019 will be a good year for gore.

I’m digging the new mechanics so far, and I like that the gameplay aspect of variations is all available from the start without reliance on new gear.

As far as what characters I want in, I’m super pumped to have Skarlet and Baraka back. I hope that Mileena returns, though I’m not super expectant. As far as other returning characters, I think it would be fun to have some of the oddballs from Deadly Alliance etc, like Nitara or Li Mei

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897

Had you expressed that from the start, then you wouldn’t have come off so entitled. Because from what I understood, it sounded like that because you bought past games which included those characters, you should get them for free in all future games should they be DLC.

898
899

then you told me i think people should work for free. but ok, thats cool ill take your explanation

refer to my previous answer, if i like it i will buy it. if i cant afford it, you can bet that i will find a way to budget for it if i am excited enough. like cyberpunk 2077 for example, if that game was sold at 80 to 100 bucks…id get it. it may not be day 1, year 1, but im going to buy it. soon as i saw that vertical slice this past august, i was thinking ■■■■■■■■ SOLD.” when i react to a game like that, im gonna buy it. i might even upgrade my PC rig to handle 60fps at 4k resolution for it, so technically you can say my cost for cyberpunk just went up several hundred bucks. people buy stupid ■■■■ in general, some think its awesome whatever it is being sold as DLC or whatever and thats fine. i just happen to think paying extra money for re-worked characters from ■■■■■■■ streetfighter 2 and alpha 2 is stupid, thats all.

i agree to this, we are reaching a new era of fighting games where its starting to become necessary to have a large roster at launch. sf4 to my recollection launched with a sizeable one

my crew had this issue with destiny, 3 man team sucked we wish it was at least 4 to 5 and it wouldve been perfect. we used to play MMORPGS all the ■■■■ time with eachother, but that genre is a dying monster and there isnt anything worth us sinking our time into and nobody wants to subscribe to anything either. i got some of my old crew playing WoW still, but i hung up my rogue daggers long ago. we are now waiting for future prospects with camelot unchained, we are hoping its going to be good and worth our time. but you know, these days its hard to commit to such a game, so if its casual friendly it should be a good fit. plus its 3 way realm vs realm, should be fun i think!

900

Pretty much. Poor Marauder Shields tried to save us all, but alas, he just wasn’t strong enough. :sob:

The original ME3 ending was objectively ■■■■■■, but what really ticked people off was how much it felt like Bioware had misled the public about what their climax was offering. All your decisions across the trilogy matter and have consequence! 17 unique endings based on your key decisions! And then it all boils down to pick a door into weirdly similar and ambiguous endings, made even worse because throughout the trilogy BW really had made good on their promise to have your choices make meaningful differences in the narrative. ME3 was full of exactly such promises being fulfilled, and then they missed the landing as hard as anything I’ve ever seen. :sweat:

For what it’s worth, I do think Bioware corrected themselves appropriately after the backlash. The EC endings were much, much better, and it wasn’t like they had to break their story vision to make it happen.

Also: turn-based RPG’s rule. FFT is one of my favorite games of all time, and in general I prefer my RPG’s (particularly Japanese ones) turn-based to real time or “active”. I think Western devs are generally much better at active RPG battles…I feel like Square and other JP devs tend to make combat worse when they try to make it faster.
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Back to MK, I think NRS absolutely nailed creating great new characters in MKX, and I’m a little sad that we haven’t really seen any of them back already. I thought the kombat kids and Kotal Khan and Erron Black were all really cool and unique in a way that acknowledged and respected the past while still moving the series forward, and I really hope that doesn’t get lost in the “time travel means we can bring everyone back” thing. MKX made some really great strides for the series in terms of great new characters, and I’d like to see many of those guys and gals get to shine in MK11 as well.

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901

I’m in this boat. I don’t think I have a single remake in my library where I actually owned the original. Something about paying to play the same game I already played years ago just makes absolutely no sense to me. Updated graphics or even gameplay just isn’t enough to make me want to buy something twice. The Resident Evil remake for the Gamecube was probably the best remake I’ve ever seen (they legitimately did a really great job on it), and even that was an easy hard pass for me.

Wait, has anyone in the history of ever actually complained that Nightwolf didn’t make it into the cast? I’m sorry, he is just a really terrible character, in all (two) of his showings in the series… :joy:

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902

i actually bought that one, i really enjoyed it and i thought it was the best version of RE1. RE2 remake is comin out already, but its a hard pass for me. i saw gameplay and all that, it just reminded me why i was tired of that style of gameplay and why RE4 was the renaissance for the series

903

PREACH :clap:

904

I did…

I feel attacked.