I get that it is just business, and KI is far from the worst game as far as nickel and diming.
I got my son BF1 for Xmas
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Iām not sure what you mean here. Are you hinting at a āno evidenceā argument to refute my post?
MS proper sees KI as a budget title. MS doesnāt / hasnāt investing in KI like they would a Halo, or a Gears, so you have to scale back the expectation here.
Why donāt they just blow the KI budget out of the water? Because KI is a fighting game, which is a niche genre, and KI itself is a 20 year old ādeadā franchise that they are resuscitating. As āsuccessfulā as KI has been, I wouldnāt say that KI is a āmoney makerā for MS, rather it is a title that justifies itās own existence through itās growing community.
If you havenāt read the above article, I would. It doesnāt explicitly say what I said, but I think it can be perceived that way from Spencerās words. He essentially believes in KI because of how it keeps, keeping on.
Well, what do you want? More KI? Because I think just buying the game, playing it, and telling your friends about it, may be enough to get that. The community fund goes a bit further though (as far as I can tell) as that has a ācommunity buildingā effect.
Pot bonuses raise the profile of a game within the FGC, and entice more people to play. That being said, it isnāt the end all be all, and it may only have a slight effect. Just pouring money into a game doesnāt make it popular, it is the core community that does that, and that is most likely the reason why MS doesnāt do just that. There are many examples of this in other communities around other games.
Back when the Shago fund was a thing, I think Keits pretty much explicitly said this, that just because money was going to be put into the tourney scene didnāt mean the game was going to blow up, BUT it did raise the profile of the game a lot. Before the 100K announcement there were SO MANY rumors and whatever going around that KI was dead / dying, that the community was fading and unhealthy, then BAM!, 100K in 3 days. Are you serious?
All that being said, do a quick Google search and youāll see how much of a buzz that announcement made around KI to the wider audience outside of the FGC. Sites like IGN, GameSpot, Kotuku, etc.., all picked it up, and all that attention essentially changed the tone around KI from ādying gameā to ācommunity darlingā with in the FGC proper.
While KI isnāt the biggest game the FGC, I think it has the majority of the sceneās respect. IMO that goes a long way in a fickle scene such as we have, and as such it helps the community at large stay healthy and continue to grow.
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I was just acknowledging that the most frequent (and probably only possible) response when asked for evidence that supporting the tourney scene helps grow the game by advertising/marketing it is to point out that Capcom and NRS both do it, so it must make sense. I think thatās reasonable but also dubious based on the different scenarios for each game and the quality of decision making that surrounds their games. But I wasnāt trying to ārefuteā your post just make the case that it isnāt unambiguously obvious to everyone that this is true. To be clear, I donāt think correlation data would be easy to generate even if there was a large and linear correlation between tournament prize bonuses and the size of a gameās player base and Iām not expecting you to offer additional evidence. But you should know that people have legitimate grounds to doubt this. It isnāt just āself evidentā that supporting the scene āgrows the game.ā
Iām totally with you on KI as a moneymaker. Iād be thrilled to hear they are breaking even on the game and Iām certain if they are turning a profit itās a small one. Iām just trying to point out that by putting the onus on the community to decide whether to kick in to the community fund and support the tournament scene they are transferring some responsibility to us to make a decision that they could just make on their own. I donāt have the data to make good marketing decisions for KI but I have a whole ton of people telling me to support the community fund because it is good marketing for the game. Assuming I donāt care about the actual tournaments themselves, I think itās at least fair to wonder if there might be better options for me to spend money on the game to get things that may be more interesting to me than tournament support.
In retrospect (and this is total hindsight backseat driving) it might have been better to more tightly link the CF announcement with Ultimates (which appeal greatly to players who donāt go to offline tournaments) even if they just set some arbitrary monetary goals. Whatās happened (in my opinion - which may well be wrong) is that the player base without a tournament interest doesnāt have a good reason to ābuy inā to this community fund. I think of you look at the development of the game as a whole they have done a great job serving the entire player base - SL for solo players, online tournaments and offline. New characters and accessories and now ultimates. As a whole I think they are doing a great job sharing the wealth, so to speak. But the positioning for the CF is pretty lousy because it is (really or artificially) posing the question to the whole player base āwill you buy Kilgore at $10 to pitch in $5 to support tournaments?ā And at least for me it begs the question āwhy should I?ā And fosters some resentment that I have to do this to get non-cosmetic content rather than my preferred response which is to just throw money at the game and feel good about it.
This is great and I know I sound like a ā ā ā ā here, but thereās an underlying assumption here that you guys all just believe on faith - good for the scene = good for the game. I look at a statement like this and I ask why I should care at all what the FGC thinks of KI. The FGC hates Smash and that game is doing great and will have two iterations represented at EVO. The FGC loves GGXRD and KoF and those games are selling WAY less and getting less developer support than KI. I just think that because you guys are part of the scene and love it, you conflate a āhealthy sceneā with a āhealthy game.ā
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I like a lot of your points, but the idea that the āsceneā (KI community and FGC as a whole) thought KI was dying is one of my issues with this generation. Before the community fund KI didnāt have any incoming content, and so didnāt make any news. That is not the same as ādyingā, and it irks me that I almost constantly hear that equivalence here on the forums and elsewhere. Buzz is certainly good for a game, of that there is no question - but buzz and āsuccessā or ālifeā are completely different things.
The FGC outside the NRS community kinda shat on MKX, particularly at launch. For that matter, they also shat on MK9. And yet, those are the most successful fighting games of the modern generation, period. If MKX never made an FGC headline and didnāt make the cut to EVO 2017, MK11 would still be assured. Because publishers donāt give a ā ā ā ā about how āthe FGCā feels about their game. How the āsceneā feels about a title is 100% irrelevant except to the extent that those players and their play can promote additional sales. Of the 6 million total unique installs that KI has gotten in its lifetime, how many of those people do you think downloaded the game because they saw it in a tournament or on a stream?
Thereās probably something to the idea that FGC members are a prime target demographic and the most loyal consumers a company can get, but they arenāt numerous enough to really make a property become a smash hit in and of themselves. So busting their butts to please that group, who (at least in our community) are incredibly fickle and sometimes out and out damaging to the conversation around the game, does not strike me as some unambiguous good. The so-called casuals who will never attend a tournament but really want stages and ultimates and want to pay for them probably outnumber by a good margin the number of people who participate in and watch KI streams.
Iām rambling, but my bottom line is this: tournament health =/= game success, and Iām tired of the two being conflated in the minds of this community.
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I get you, but at the same time I think the evidence does bear this statement out. Of course we donāt have numbers and all that, but KI is still here, it is still growing (specifically the game itself), and based on the fact that the Devs have stated that āif you (the community) keep supporting the game, we will keep making it,ā and that they are still āmaking it,ā I think it is a safe bet that the community is fueling the gameās creating adequately.
I understand this sentiment as well, but like I said, just the announcement of that 100K Community Fund raise the profile of KI. This type of stuff works, irrefutably so. How much that translates into money for āmore KIā is up for debate, but it speak volumes for the community itself, and mind share of the greater community.
But what if that wasnāt / isnāt true?
Ultimates, as far as I can tell, are comming for all the character regardless of how much is raised from Kilgore. Ultimates are like the S2 Rivals mode, like the stage re-lighting, like S3 Shadow Lords mode, the Devs are creating content and expanding the game, while taking in community feed back, because that is what the communityās support has justified. Ultimates specifically are coming because the community demanded it, not because we āraised money for itā from the aforementioned community fund.
Like I said before, just supporting the game proper (buying seasons, playing, sharing) has been / is enough to āget more KI,ā the community fund is something different, something extra.
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I donāt think Ultimates are linked to the CF but maybe they should have been. Or something artificial like āfor every $50k that goes to the community fund we will reveal a story board for one characters ultimate.ā Iām just spitballing, but just something to increase the buy in from guys who donāt go to tournaments.
As far as the rest - all fair points. And of course itās all academic discussion because I bought Kilgore and paid into the CF.
Personally, I think this is where they goofed.
They should have locked the Ultimates behind a benchmark in the CF. It wouldāve made the CF much more enticing all around. They could be done and ready to ship, whatever. What the consumer doesnāt know exists wonāt hurt their purchasing habits.
Dear Microsoft Pricing Decision Maker,
Manipulate your fanbase to maximize profits like you want profits, FFS. Itās not hard. KI fans tend to be SUPER UP FRONT about what they want. They want Ultimates, and they really donāt care how.
Now youāve made them expect Ultimates to be free of cost. You messed up, Microsoft. You messed up so bad I wonder where you got that business degree you hang on your office wall, and how the eff you got that office in the first place, cuz I know it wasnāt your fundraising prowess.
From everything Iāve read and seen, the $5 goes to supporting the tourney scene, which they feel helps support this game. Right or wrong, that seems to be what they believe. Either itās a business decision from a marketing standpoint, or an emotional decision from people that donāt just work to bring content to the FGC, but also likely consider themselves a part of it.
Having said that, what do you think they did wrong in wanting to support KIās tourney scene within the FGC and what would you have done differently?
I can respect that, but Iām more or less satisfied in knowing that whether I donate to something, or pay taxes to something, thereās always the chance that it goes to something that I consider a net positive or a net negative.
Sure, there are some real d-bags in the FGC. People that look down their noses at KI or complain about it nonstop and have the audacity to think that they could somehow design a better game just because they can flick a joystick and press some buttons really fast.
But there are also good people, including Brandon and many others, that do a lot for the community and the game as a whole and I think that we, as fans, have to have a little trust in the people making the game and selling the game, that they might know a bit more about how to get this game in to as many hands as possible without having the full financial backing that MS would provide to a bigger budget title.
Just my opinion though. I get that theyāre not always going to make the right decisions, but theyāve been pretty consistent on wanting to support āthe sceneā and the game seems to keep growing. So perhaps they may have information that weāre not privy to that supports their continued efforts going in this direction? Who knows for sure though. Anyways, just a thought.
That seems to be the impression that I get. Or at least itās connected enough in the eyes of the decision makers to believe that continually pursuing this path toward getting the word out has a positive enough effect on sales so as to be worth it.
Personally, for five extra dollars, Iām going to defer to their judgment on it, and not just because I occasionally enjoy watching the high level play that many of these tournaments offer.
The only used games that I buy are the ones that are not sold in stores anymore (ie games from multiple generations ago). Otherwise I only buy games new. Thatās just me though. 
Yeah, I hear you, but I think youāre looking at a specific end result that doesnāt take the bigger picture in to account. As UncappedWheel said, this stuff is connected. If MS / IG believe that helping the KI tourney scene is beneficial to KI, then Iām willing to take them at their word.
Well, for one thing, I canāt imagine any developer would want, in good faith, to simply solicit their fanbase for money. Thatās what it sounds like youāre saying. āKilgore is $5, but please give us $10 because we need it.ā I canāt imagine thatād go over well with fans, or MS for that matter.
Besides, saying tourneys donāt boost sales in any way is an assumption I donāt think we have the data to make. If we had any proof or evidence that the tourney scene had no positive effects on KIās sales, then okay.
But again, Iām guessing that they see a solid benefit to going through the FGC and trying to get the eyes of as many genre fans on KI as possible by getting the game featured in places that FGC people look at.
The fact of the matter is that the gameās player base seems to be growing. Whether thatās just releasing it on PC, free seasons on Games with Gold, the excitement of new seasons, press coverage (limited though it may be), or any other reasons, they all presumably have some sort of net gain for the franchise in the eyes of decision makers and Iām at least okay in this instance with going along with those that likely have more information on this very topic than I do.
Sorry to pick this out and kinda go on a random tangent here, but Iām sure you know that the FGC has shat on MK since the first game. Most people I knew loved MK1, but I remember talking to SF fans and many of them just despised it. Iām sure it wasnāt everyone, of course. But I heard more than enough people say āthey just used gore to cover up the fact that itās a terrible game.ā
Ummā¦ Okay. Not sure how thatās helpful to FGC guy and FGC guyās game, but honestly, that kind of divisive snobbery likely drives away more people than it brings in to FGC guyās chosen title. Itās one of the reasons why I never dove in to that community with a full head of steam back when I played a lot more in the arcade days. Too many walking āgamerā stereotypes telling everyone whatās good and whatās not and trying to be the funniest sheep in the flock by finding the best way to put down scrub games or scrub players. I honestly felt bad for them; like they were happily cutting off their own noses to spite their faces, assuming that the genre would just keep growing.
Obviously, there are tons of awesome players in the FGC too. There are FAR too many people involved to say ātheyāre all thisā or ātheyāre all that.ā I just had enough bad experiences over my early years to make my local scene and some groups not worth my time. Iāll go on enjoying nearly every fighting game I play and those happy people can go on liking the three or four titles that fit their friends rigid list of āokay to playā titles. I think that worked out okay for me.
I think thatād be a great little reward for people that arenāt in to the tourney scene. I think thatād be pretty cool.
Who knows though. Maybe if we wind up raising a good amount of money, maybe they can come back later and say āhey, these things we were able to do here? These things are a direct result of the community fund.ā Maybe those things will have nothing to do with tournaments. Maybe thatāll never happen, but ya never know.
To be clear, that wasnāt my stance, I was just echoing the sentiment that was floating around in the either at the time.
MK is a different beast entirely from the new KI, and the old one for that matter.
KI 2013 was explicitly positioned to grow out of the tourney scene at launch. While the game made a big splash at E3 in 2013, and on day 1 on sites like IGN and such, it was due to tournament streams like Leveluplive, and itās showings at Evo that gave the game more context, as they were all used to promote the game.
In contrast, while KI was ādead,ā MK was still doing its thing OUTSIDE of the modern FGC. MK was still selling millions to casual players from 2002 to 2009. The HORRIBLE MK vs. DCU game sold MILLIONS of copies, and it didnāt need the Evo crowd at all. That all changed in 2009 though with MK9, as NRS tried to cater specifically to the Evo crowd, on top of capitalizing on the causals.
But yeah, MK NEVER thrived off the FGC proper. This current KI hasnāt had, and still may not have (IDK), that luxury. All that being said, KI has grown a lot in the last 2 years with all the single player content and all, so it may be self sustaining now as it can cater to different player needs. That is at least how I see it.
IDK. Iām not saying that the tourney scene was/is the end all be all, but it IS important, and WAS more important still at the beginning of the gameās life. That being said, I think the fact that KI is a āfree to tryā game played a HUGE part in that 6 Million number.
This is all true, but you MUST remember where KI 2013 started. It started in the core of the FGC. The launch version of KI was bear bones, and really ONLY appealed to the core crowd. It wasnāt until S2 that they started to add substantial ācasualā player content, and it wasnāt until S3 that they blew that out more. 2016-17ās KI is in a completely different place than it was in 2013, at least as far as I can tell, and yes, that is due to the more casual content they added to the game.
I agree. I for one am ecstatic that Ultimates are returning (Iāve been pining for these since day -90), and have been having a blast with Shadows and Shadow Lords. That being said, I still jump at the opportunity to support the tourney scene, as I see it as one of the pillars of KIās current successes.
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I think itās kinda funny how people donāt mind if the skin packs were randomized at a 5 dollar price tag but loose their sh/t at a 10 dollar character with no accessories. Kilgore isnāt being held ransom by a 60$ Xbox live subscription like shadow jago was. who cares itās 5 bucks. Jesus! IG shouldnāt have to beg for cash like the shago fund. at least with a 10 dollar Kilgore they provide us content up front and help the game stand on its own to feet without an IOU. if no one can tell me how to spend my money, how can we tell IG how to spend theirs. Iāve made lots of dumb thread but this one blows mine up by far. lol
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I wonder if/when theyāll reveal how much has been raised? Since thereās no cap on this CF it may not be as quick as the Shadow Jago CF.
Shago was a skin, not a full character
And he came with a 1 year xbox live subscription, which surely most (if not all) of us had to get sooner or later.
At least in my region, 1 xbox live subscription was 60$. So I got a Shago skin āfor freeā for something I needed (the subscription )
So there was no downfall to me in that transaction. I didnāt had to spend any extra dollar to get the skin because I was using the gold too.
10$ is not a lot of money.
But it is compared to(letās say for example) Aganos, a unique character (not remix), with his own stage, and worth of 5$. Or a full season(8 characters! 9 if is S2!) With all their themes, stages and characters for 20$(twice the price, 7 more characters). The it seems a bit overpriced.
I have no problem helping the tournament scene, but including it into a character feels a bit weird to me.
But this is just my opinion, and itās ok if someone donāt share it. I bought Kilgore anyway because I love this game.
But if I have some kind of reclaim over something, I donāt want (or deserve ) to be berated fot that.
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I have a somewhat similar set up. I use a small stool I bought from Walmart, then I use a item to prop my fight stick at an angle. It used to be a rolled up hello kitty fleece blanket LOL as of last week its a Lap gear Book/ I pad pillow I got from book a million still in its outer card board sleeve to hold its form stronger. It works great. Oh and I use a sheet of Kitchen cabinet mat material to make it have more of a friction against one another to prevent sliding. I just dont play as well with the stick flat on my lap, its uncomfortable. Of course at a live tournament I play in my lap, but if I could tote my contraption around easily I would. Ive been thinking of creating a wooden mini arcade shaped bottom to replace the stool, ectā¦ just have to get around to doing it.
yeah, we need professional help lol
So much thoughtful contentā¦ canāt respond to all of it (brain explodes).
Hereās the short:
@Iago407 I think if they said Something as simple as āKilgore costs $10. For every purchase Microsoft will contribute $5 to supporting tournamentsā then that would help the positioning. And maybe thatās what they said. ButTwitch chat and Twitter have turned it into āKilgore is $5 but you also have to contribute $5 to a tournament fund.ā I think Infilās idea of a three pack + tournament fund for $20 would be great. Ideally, I would link the CF to cosmetics because I donāt see this content as sufficiently optional for fans of the game. Thatās my list.
@UncappedWheel82 itās possible this is true and that the exposure of KI to the what, 200,000 (tops) people who attend and view FGC streams made a difference to the game. But my experience was the opposite. I first heard of level up live when you mentioned it in your last post. I was vaguely aware of EVO because of SF IV and I had a notion of who Daigo and Justin Wong were. But Killer Instinct brought me into much greater contact and exposure with the FGC - not the other way around. Maximilian is probably the biggest streamer in the FGC in terms of viewership and I had never heard of him until I started searching for KI 2013 news after this game was announced. I now follow half a dozen FGC folks on Twitch and YouTube. And Iām a guy who has ALWAYS been way into fighting games. Recognizing that KI was dormant for 20 years I think FGC folks drastically underestimate the appeal of the KI brand to gamers who grew up with it, and somewhat erroneously contribute the gameās success to the FGC because they are familiar with the FGC and not the millions of living rooms where guys my age are downloading KI eagerly on Xbox One launch day. No, it isnāt Halo. But KI has a built in audience. MS definitely gets that part of the equation - hence Shadow Lords and Eyedol and Ultimates, none of which mean squat to the competitive community. It sounds mean spirited and Iām not trying to dismiss the FGC or belittle it, but I would be stunned if more than 20% of sales for KI came from people who discovered the game through exposure at offline events or through streams. People with pro stars? Yeah a much higher percent are FGC. Remember the SNES game sold over 3 million copies in 1995 to guyās who are now in their 30ās (and 40s if you are me) and now spend a ton of money on video games and consoles but are unlikely to be a part of the FGC which skews much younger. I accept that everyone you know who plays KI may be part of the FGC and thatās where they heard of the game. But I know a ton of KI players through Xbox live and none of them know bupkis about the Tournament scene except what I tell them.
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Lol. Iām tall so when I hold the stick on my lap usually my knees are higher than my waist so it sits in an angle. But I like a higher angle so I tend to sit with my feet tip toe just to get it a bit higher. No joke I developed Achilles tendinitis partly as a result of this - proving both that I am too old and play too much KI.
Now I try to play with the stick off my lapā¦
Are you going to add some KI art to your new FS platform? lol I want to make one thatās waist high when sitting down, at a steep angle on top, all sanded down wood, and then make it look like a mini arcade since it will have that tall, lean build with an angled top.
My son does the same with his fight stick now that he has an Xbox in his room, he props it on a box and his lil spider man chair. Super cool
I think that mightāve been what they said. Almost verbatim. Maybe Iām misremembering. I couldāve sworn thatās how Keits phrased it.
Well yeah, twitter and twitch chatā¦ Otherwise known as the 4th and 5th circles of hell. I canāt say Iām surprised it got turned in to Kilgore is $5 and you also have to contribute to the tournament fund lol.
Iām honestly surprised it didnāt get morphed in to āFive dollars, a pint of your blood plus a pint of someone elseās blood will get you a picture of Kilgore. Another five dollars, plus the still beating heart of a griffin and the all seeing eyes of a sorcerer will get you Kilgoreā¦ But only in Shadow Lords.ā
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I take it you are an OG of KI?
My scenario was necessarily directed at you, but rather those who had no previous connection with KI.
Sure, everyone is going to have different experiences in getting into KI, but regardless, if streamers like Max hadnāt been talking about KI back then, if the tournaments hadnāt happened, if the Shago CF hadnāt taken place, KI today would be in a different place.
Like for example an online training mode, that allows intermediate and advanced players to get better and would potentially give them the knowledge and confidence to enter tournamens rather than just join a chat during EVO. Basically we build our own tournament-ready players rather than handing out Free money to a tiny pro player base.
Prize money is the reward not an investment.
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I bought my X1 because of Killer Instinct comming back. I am just as old as you, so I get where you are comming from. This fourm is the only reason the I even found out tournaments even exist.
KI has had a fan base long before the reboot happened.
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