Just a thought and critic

After playing many and many Jagos this season it’s fair to say that Jago is too good. I would mean: ridiculously good. I don’t understand why you made him so good considering that most of the cast was tone down. I’m being beaten by the same (unbreakable) set ups over and over again while Jagos get health all the time and BAR, lots of bars. Frametraps (lets not talk about instinct, the frametraps are insane). Good normals, good buttons, extremelly good defensive game. Ok, he’s not fast, I’ll give you that. But still, I’m feeling he is a bit OP if you asked me. He was tough before but now is just too much.

I mean, I’m not bad with Wulf, but Jagos damage is so dumb considering the tools he has. It’s a really hard match up right now. Oh yeah, lets not fogert about DPs. I mean, he has everything and he’s possibly the best character in the game (I won’t talk about Eyedol).

And please, don’t tell me it’s easy to beat Jagos…Just don’t.


Sounds like jago gives you a hard time.

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Yeah, sorry, I couldn’t help it. u.u

I think we should look at some tapes when you play jago. There are method you can take to get the upper hand on him. You have Better neutral buttons.

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Um it’s easy.

Disclaimer: Jago main.

I think Jago is in a perfect place right now, and if he were actually out of line (he might be top 5?) I’d rather see other cast members be buffed to be in line with Jago. I’m fine with fighting against Wulf’s unreactable overhead and S2 damage if that’s what it takes to stack up. I’m apprehensive about what seems like a progression of nerfs and calls for nerfs that erode KI’s high-power neutral game in general, so I’m kinda taking a stand here.

It might be worth your while reviewing the rebalance notes.

Jago didn’t change much. The main things he picked up are the flipout (one of the less relevant flipouts in the game) and the chargeable/dash-cancellable fireballs. He lost a far stronger tool in the DP recovery cancel. The changes to juggle KV allow him to murder jump-in attempts. The system changes to unbreakables and shadow counters are implicit nerfs to Jago – the shadow counter changes hurt Jago more than e.g. Wulf, because Jago’s mixup tools are less potent, so he spends longer on average looking for counterhits.

So I guess my question is, why weren’t you complaining about Jago in season 2? He’s worse now. Is it just a relative thing?

Instinct fireball health regen was nerfed in the rebalance; meter gain was nerfed recently. In the scheme of KI instincts, I’d say Jago’s is middle of the road.

Patience beats Jago’s pressure. Jago’s throw has terrible range, which means he’s often not in range for a throw mixup, and you only need to block and look out for the overhead until you’re pushed out of range, and if he wants to get back in he needs to throw out a double roundhouse (prep that shadow counter) or take a big risk.

This contrasts, again, with a character like Wulf, whose frame traps are largely better than Jago’s (crLK is +4 (!!!) on block, overpower brings Wulf back in with plus frames without being shadow counterable on reaction like double roundhouse) and who has better throw range and a dirtier assortment of mixups (dashthrough, jumping slash/hamstring which works from distances where you’d just default to stand block against Jago, jump/diving slash mixups which are difficult to anti-air). Whilst Jago loses to patience, Wulf’s pressure generally wins.

I still think Wulf probably wins the matchup. Wulf practically takes Jago’s jump HP mixup off the table with eclipse, Wulf’s options at a character length or closer outclass Jago’s, and Wulf probably wins the neutral because Wulf has great movement and doesn’t care much about fireballs (you can get past them with jumping slash, hamstring and diving slash, or just bulldog in with your great forward dash), meaning Jago leans on wind kick pretty hard (hence predictably – bait and whiff punish). To win, Jago really needs to capitalize on knockdowns and get lucky on defense.

But then, I’m still learning Wulf, and I don’t have Wulf’s neutral down yet. Who knows, maybe the learning experience will show me that Wulf really struggles to deal with fireball zoning or something?

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he might be top 5

Top 3 probably

Jago didn’t change much. The main things he picked up are the flipout

Flip out is very very good for Jagos. The mix up isn’t bad at all, and If you have instinct is really good.

the shadow counter changes hurt Jago more than e.g. Wulf

Wulf’s ragged edge is not hard to shadow counter. I feel Jagos forward+HK is closer to Fulgores forward + HP. It’s punisheable? yes. But Think I shadow counter. Wulf it’s easy to break and relying on Counter breakers without meter won’t get me to far without good reads. Jago is not that hard to break too, but he is still good with manuals. Good jagos will give you headaches with them, and even jumping Jagos can be a thing. What does it says of a character?

Instinct fireball health regen was nerfed in the rebalance; meter gain was nerfed recently

Hard to tell, and yes, it supposed it was nerfed. But I’m finding myself in countless wind kicks fireball cancels (don’t really mind those, I can pusnih them quite well with my main, but still, the meter!)

Patience beats Jago’s pressure

This, I like this.

This contrasts, again, with a character like Wulf, whose frame traps are largely better than Jago’s (crLK is +4 (!!!) on block,

Just dp out of them

overpower brings Wulf back in with plus frames

you can dp overpower too. But yes, it will let me block after it, and you can do things after it too (catch me in a back dash or hit a safe normal)

(dashthrough, jumping slash/hamstring which works from distances where you’d just default to stand block against Jago, jump/diving slash mixups which are difficult to anti-air). Whilst Jago loses to patience, Wulf’s pressure generally wins.

Wind Kick beats ALL my lows. DP is scary and people is not afraid to use them (YES I accept that I must make them afraid to use them, mind games, I know) And I’m at range to be put into Jagos frametraps. Maybe trying to play far away, but I’m supposed to be a rushdown, right?
And going under fireballs with hamstring it’s not that easy if you don’t do it perfectly. The punish with a wind kick or an overhead could be pretty bad. He can spam balls in different sizes as much as he wants. And of course, he can cancel to bait you trying to low profile them with a special move that it’s really, really negative (hamstring)

I still think Wulf probably wins the matchup

I think in S2 it was 5-5 but now I feel it’s in Jago’s favor because of his risk reward game. S2 Wulf was maybe too much too and it’s ok they nerfed it.

Wulf hasn’t got wake up options, his anti air is good, but it’s tricky. I can’t beat a Jagos Jumping HP wihout a Shadow. But as I can see I may be losing the patience game. I’m just too tired of his damage and health gaining infinite inbreakable frametraps on instinc. It’s a hard match, this is a real struggle. But I don’t know, I may needed to talk about it. It’s not that all Jagos beat me, it’s just I’m having a bad time facing them and it looks there’s an important number of players using him, hah.

It sounds like you’re giving Jago way too much respect. Your response to all the frame advantage Wulf has is that Jago can just DP your follow up, and you also say windkick’s lower body invincibility beats all your lows. If you’re constantly afraid that your opponent will do the perfect counter to what you’re doing then you’re never going to get any momentum going which means you’re sacrificing Wulf’s greatest strength.

At the same time though, if you see that a Jago is constantly doing DP after blocking something from you then just block and punish. He’s not doing it on reaction to anything, they’re just doing it and hoping it hits something.


It’s only happening off a juggle which means that Jago either went for his worst ender (post-ender juggle damage is lol) or anti-aired you (which hurts enough without a reset opportunity), you get this comically large amount of time to notice the flipout compared to those of other characters, and Jago doesn’t get the sort of 5-way mixup that other characters get off their flipouts. I wouldn’t bat an eyelid if the devs removed it in the next patch.

I’m finding ragged edge more useful for counterhit confirms and punishes than for use as a wind kick-like halfscreen threat. Out past midscreen I’d rather running uppercut, or jumping slash/hamstring mixup, or dash forward and do something like overpower or sweep, and closer in I’m more likely going for overpower. I don’t know that shadow counterability of ragged edge is a big thing.

Besides, you seem to be ignoring the substance of my argument. Jago cares more about good shadow counters because:

  • Wulf can frame trap forever, but he can also go straight for the mixups, meaning he spends less time frame trapping on average than Jago, who really wants to frame trap forever. The more you frame trap, the easier it is for your opponent to guess shadow counter and be correct.
  • If Wulf’s frame traps push him out and he wants back in, he can overpower and keep going, without offering up a two-hitting move to shadow counter on reaction. Jago needs to offer up a double roundhouse, which, whilst difficult, is shadow counterable on reaction.

It’s probably not the best use of meter for Jago.[quote=“MaruMDQ, post:7, topic:13642”]
Just dp out of them

Easier said than done, especially in the heat of the moment where you’re suggesting the Jago player goes from crouch-block to Z motion and a button within, what, 15 frames, perfectly timed? And whilst on counterhit the damage from Jago’s DP is up above 15%, on block Jago should be taking a big punish stating with 20% guaranteed, and expected damage in the 30-40% range.

Wait, block? Backdash? After overpower? Are we talking about the same move? Overpower is +2 or something, right?

If you do, say, crLK, crLK, crLK, overpower, crLK, overpower, crLK, crLK, overpower, crLK, …, over and over again, forever, then basically the only ways out are reversal, backdash and shadow counter. If your opponent just presses a button anywhere in there, you net a counterhit and confirm into a combo. Basically the first thing I did when I started learning Wulf was to get decent at this loop.

It’ll do that, which maybe discourages dash-in sweep somewhat, which seems fair because dash-in sweep is generally pretty darn good. But you have other options to stuff out wind kick in ranges where you would go for a sweep.

If you’re in range to eat a double roundhouse then you’re in range to overpower.

Yeah, I used to think it was easier for Wulf to punish a fireball from midscreen on reaction than I’m finding it to be now that I’m on the Wulf side. Maybe I just got rekt by too many aggressive Wulfs just going straight for the mixup and lost the nerve to throw fireballs, or maybe I’m not good enough at reaction hamstring.

But you don’t have to react. You can just get into that midscreen range and throw the mixup at them, and if the Jago player threw the fireball then you win, and if they didn’t then they still have to block the mixup. If they throw a lot of fireballs then this becomes really likely to work, and you can also jump at them from certain ranges and diving slash if you see the fireball startup. You should also just dash forward and block the fireballs, which’ll put you at Jago’s doorstep very quickly because Wulf’s dash is amazing.

If you’re downbacking, all you need to do is flick up and hit a punch. You don’t even have to worry about whether it’ll cross up or anything like that.

This is Killer Instinct. Every character is tuned like a final boss :slight_smile: Every character can do things that make your jaw hit the floor. Focus your analyses and learning on what makes Wulf insane. From there, you can figure out how to beat Jago’s insanity with Wulf’s.

CrazyLCD just posted a vid on YouTube of some sets with a really good Jago. He’s using Arbiter, but if you watch the vid, you’ll be able to observe some of Jago’s weaknesses. Bait a DP, for example. If he DPs into a block, then he’s your plaything for the next 3 seconds. The simplest way to bait one out of him is to approach him after he’s been knocked down, as he’s getting up, start blocking. Lots of Jagos (even in Killer) can’t resist a tasty DP wakeup if it’s sitting right in front of them.



If you’re downbacking

I don’t know what this means. Maybe we could have some sets to check all this. I think it would be better. Thanks for your answer.


It sounds like you’re giving Jago way too much respect

Maybe I am. I’m just feeling his buttons are too good too, however I still believe Wulf has great buttons. But if you ask me I pretty much feel most Wulf players feel similar vs Jago, at least when we talk about risk reward game (talking about damage). It’s a hard MU, but of course, not impossible at all.

The word down backing? It’s a term for when you block low.


Just to remark on Jago’s place in the tier list, I think he is probably top 1 (not counting Eyedol), after the slight Fulgore changes last patch. Either way I think it’s Fulgore/Jago as 1 and 2 in some order.

He is exceptionally strong in this version of the game. There are some small tweaks you can do to nerf him, but I wouldn’t change any of his frame data, so I think he will always be strong.

(The current version of Eyedol is looking down on both of them from Mount Olympus though)

As you likely know, Wulf can punish Jago’s shadow fireball with shadow ragged edge. So you trade meters and get a grounded combo starter, which is pretty good! Jago has more meter than you, so you won’t always be able to do this, but if Jago wants to throw away his meter like this, I think that works out pretty well for Wulf players.


lol, I know that you’ve had your fill of forum abuse lately, but you can’t just drop a remark like this and not expect to be dragged into talking specifics.

Heh, is that position particularly surprising? I think most of the community recognizes Jago is very strong. He is not running away with the game, but putting him in my top 1 or 2 characters in the game doesn’t seem particularly out of place to me. I can’t imagine any list where he is not in the top 5, at the very least.

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It’s a little surprising. You have talked about Thunder being degenerate recently, which doesn’t make as much sense if it doesn’t materialize in the the character outperforming the balanced section of the cast – a situation you may’ve carefully picked your words on so as to never really weigh in on. More broadly there’s this intuition that Jago forms (or should form) something of a yardstick for character balance, if Jago clearly stands out then the rest of the cast aren’t adequately equipped. Would you say there’s anything degenerate about what Jago does at the moment?

I guess I’m also wondering whether you’re attributing this to any of his new season 3 toys, or if you think the “core” Jago gameplan that’s been around forever is a bit much now that the edge has been taken off of some of the season 2 monsters. The claim lacks that kind of qualification.

EDIT: but also, now I’m drawing you into a debate that other people have weighed in on in pretty lopsided and toxic ways, and I won’t blame you if you want no part of it.

But he loses more matches than he actually wins. Not to mention the “community” or rather the “Specialist” placed him in B tier.

lol, the thing PaulB created is nice an’ all, but I think we know better than to place any serious stock in the results.


I know lol but in all fairness despite Jagos tools, he loses a lot of matchups. Not to mention getting absolutely crushed by Gargos.

In all fairness, Wulf just isn’t as great this Season, Jagos Endo cancel added more to his tools. But, idk… I still can’t say he is #1.

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As a Jago player, I can say that his major weakness comes from his auto-doubles. Everyone knows them, which can make him easy to break unless you rely on manuals.

Not that it helps the OP as a Wulf player, but Shadow Wind Kick not going full screen also hurts. Sure, it low crushes, but so many others of the cast have further reaching and projectile-invincible shadows. Also, ultra-low profile moves like some of the slides cannot be punished with wind kick or sometimes even shadow countered.

Wulf has good pokes and a great grab. Rely on them.

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