Wow really I thought Jago easily wins this match up?
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Noooooo. Did you watch Thompxsonâs stream today? He shows exactly how bad he shuts out Jago.
No I did not. I will check it out though.
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I do think Thunder is pretty degenerate, but Iâm not too sure what that has to do with Jagoâs balance? When I use the word âdegenerateâ I donât always necessarily mean the technique is super strong, by the way, just that it is clearly better than his other tools so it invalidates all attempts to do anything else. (I do think Thunderâs stuff is very strong though)
I have always thought Jago is very good, and he has probably never been outside my top 5 characters except maybe at some random points in Season 2, when he was probably 6th or something. His toolkit is just very strong and hard to stop. That doesnât mean I think he wins every matchup or whatever⊠I think he struggles in some matchups and is very beatable in tournament. But his tooklit is built in such a way that he just can never be that bad.
For S3 Jago, I think he is very good because his core gameplay is the same, instinct nerf (meter build + health) is very small as to not matter in practice, and fireball dash cancels really nicely supplement his plus frame style offense. Letting him dash back into range without using shadow counterable fwd+HK is a very strong addition to his gameplan, and stopping fireball cancel stuff is very non-trivial because he can delay the release and counter hit you, and if he releases it late enough, heâs still plus. There is just something very strong about a character that is always plus.
The main reason I think he is so good, though, is his damage is very high. He doesnât need many openings to kill you, and he always has meter.
I wouldnât say thereâs anything degenerate about Jago, no. He is very solid, but very good. I wouldnât recommend the dev team change anything about his frame data or make wind kick worse or anything of the things I know youâre a bit nervous about.
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Easier than you might think - input shortcut shoryu (
+P) is very easy to input while in block stun, and can be mashed out pretty effectively with a decent amount of practice. I use it to punish a lot of frame-trappy stuff when Iâm running Jago, to include Wulf overpower shenanigans.
My personal belief is that Jago doesnât âstand outâ primarily because the things that make him ridiculous are fairly boring and non-spectacular, and are ridiculous because of favorable frames as opposed to generalized â â â â â â â â His neutral specials are likewise very strong, but theyâre strong in easily understood and non-spectacular ways. I personally think Jago is just as if not more dirty than the rest of the cast - he just doesnât flaunt it by flying around the screen like a madman or teleporting all over the place.
So all respect to Thompxson, but I disagree incredibly strongly with the idea that Jago doesnât win almost any MUâs, and that he clearly loses some of these others. Even in MUâs where the neutral is unfavorable for Jago, his damage output is so high and his instinct utility is such that heâs never very far from taking a fight. Jago heavily outdamages a huge slice of the cast, particularly the nuttier-neutral characters that give him problems, and the fact that he always has a bar of shadow compounds this by letting him tack on damage at will or negate pressure with DP->shadow fireball. I donât know that Iâd personally put Jago at #1, but heâs always been very good, and I think the fireball dash cancels (used wisely) are a very potent addition to his toolset.
I would agree with this take on his offense, as nothing Jago does is degenerate (which I also define as âbest option in all scenariosâ, as opposed to necessarily overly strong). The only quibble I have is that I would nerf DP->shadow fireball. I have become pretty fundamentally against safe invincible reversals in general, and Jago has the meter to do this particular version of that way too often in my opinion. His DP does entirely too much damage and he has entirely too much access to meter to be able to safely reversal in this manner.
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Jago hardly wins any matchup any matchup? Yeah, that portion of the tier list is highly misleading so much so that even Thompxson admitted that he was being very modest. He went over today in his stream which fights go in his favor which include matchups against Maya, Riptor and a few others.
He is very good, I will never drop Jago, despite putting him on a break for a bit. Regardless, I canât see him as #1 if he has certain matchups where he is just dominated despite the offense/defense playstyle. That said, I think he is great where he is especially with the recent meter nerf.
backdash.
That is all.
Windkick.
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No one should ever in their life use wind-kick on a waking-up opponent, or immediately after a frame-trap unless they have a hard read on a back-dash or low attack.
If you are facing a Jago that can make those kinds of reads on you⊠Then your problem isnât the character, its the player. They are in your head, and you need to start getting in theirs.
@MaruMDQ Be honest, are you a good enough player that you are focusing on conditioning and mind-games, or are you trying to say that jagoâs options are so good, that even when you have a read on him, they beat you? (examples would be nice)
This is a bit misleading. Light and medium windkick are essentially safe despite being negative on block, so you donât risk much by throwing it out.
Iâve done it plenty of times and found success against opponents who tend to backdash often.
@MaruMDQ has an amazing Wulf, I can see why she has problems with Jago as higher tier Jagos will just dominate, Iâve faced a few who are terrifying and I know that matchup best.
I mean even Infil believes that Jago is well within his top 5 characters because his toolset. Again, respect to Infil, but I canât see Jago as #1 although I do see him as top 5.
Regardless, as you say the player can also be the problem here because they utilize Jagos toolset best. Still, he has several weaknesses, it just takes time to find and exploit those areas.
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I dont believe he has any weaknesses except his zoning.
But the whole point of jago is to be rewarded for correct moves, and punished for wrong ones. I think he fits that bill perfect.
If i HAD to choose a nerf for jago, i would make medium windkick punishable. That would teach people to stop using it for frame traps, and use it more for reads against low attacks in the footsie game.
Not just windkick, meaty double roundhouse and heavy laser sword can catch backdashes too. Heâs not exactly starved for options to beat a backdashing opponent. If you have frame perfect timing you could even do a non-meaty close fierce on their wakeup, timed so itâd still beat any non-invul wakeup option but catch backdashes in its active frames.
That would be a really major nerf, heâd have no safe way to attack outside of far fierce range aside from fireballs (low reward) or double roundhouse (very slow to get that second hit.)
Seems like two very plausible things to happen, to me.
Nah, this is a rough change for him that not only makes him worse, but also makes him far less interesting and more linear, pretty much the opposite of what we want to do to KI characters. Heâs -3 after medium wind kick, so he gives up offense to take a shot at you not blocking in footsies range in neutral, that seems like the type of thing we want to promote.
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I want to reply to a lot of stuff here soon, but I just wanted to say right away that Iâd probably quit KI if medium wind kick became punishable. (Civilly, mind. I wouldnât go out of my way to be toxic and harass Keits about it.)
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I donât mind Jagos frame data. I wouldnât nerf that either
-IMO, Jago itâs fine as he is. Top 5 for sure
-If I have to choose a nerf for him, I would choose damage. Not a huge nerf, just a bit. Following the s2 Fulgore damage nerf logic, Jago has good tools for each situation, and his damage, albeit not crazy like Mira or Tusk, itâs really good. But I think itâs not necessary
-Jago has probably top 3 best defense tools of the cast. That DP reaaaaaally hurts on counterâŠ
I think Jagoâs defense is one of the best in the game, yeah (again, not counting Eyedol). Highest damage DP with -4 on block shadow cancel, and a pretty substantial hitbox so it is hard to walk out of range of it. His shadow counter is probably the best? Projectile invincible and long range, and will randomly crush lows and throws if you accidentally shadow counter something silly like a Glacius hail. He doesnât have the best backdash, so thatâs the one argument you could make for characters with better defense (maybe Cinder, Fulgore, or Shadow Jago), but Jagoâs DP damage hurts so much and the safe-ish shadow cancel really makes up for it.
Iâve argued in favor of removing all shadow cancels on blocked invincible moves in the past, but Iâm not sure the team agrees with me. But I definitely wouldnât remove Jagoâs high damage DP, it is satisfying to land and I like moves like this (risky, easily punishable) to have high damage.
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when u say u think jago is the best character in the game, it makes me interested to see how you break down every matchup for jago because i dont see how jago wins more matchups than fulgore and gargos. and even the matchups jago wins he doesnt dominate but rather has to outplay and critically think his way to victory. while i feel fulgore and gargos win some matchups by a very large margin. i think the author of this post is complaining so much abt jago because he is so popular and there so many players who have strong shoto fundamentals that beat him up. imo the jago/wulf mu is even at high level play ,so i dont see why he is complaing. jago is clearly top 5 but that is only natural since the game is balanced around him. and finally u said jago has the best shadow counter but i think wulfs is significantly better. especially with its recapture property. personally if i was to nerf anything abut jago, it would be a slight damage nerf to his damage ender and its shadow version and his instinct should deplete as he throws out fireballs and shadow fireballs like ryu in sf5 or tusk in ki. so he never gains no matter what more than 25% health. what do u think ??? i am looking forward to hearing what you say
Yeah Jago has to critically think his way to victory, but thatâs okay because his tools are still strong. A top tier character can be one that doesnât get to just abuse everyone in every situation (like, say, a SFV Chun might), they can still have weak points in their game or bad matchups.
I definitely donât think Gargos has more favorable matchups than Jago. I imagine Gargos gets really dunked by a few characters (some characters kill minions well and also have outstanding pressure on Gargos, who has very bad defense), and I think if Jago has any losses, they are pretty slight.
Jago also gains like 20-25% health on his swings, but he also does 20-25% damage to the opponent (plus some white life for more damage if he lands another hit), so the health swing is a lot closer to 50%. Itâs not just about the damage recovered, but also the damage dealt.
Again, I donât think Jago is running away with the game or anything. He is comfortably in the top tier, hanging around a few other characters. If they decided to normalize his damage a small bit (as you mentioned), itâs not totally unreasonable and Jago will only be marginally weaker. I wouldnât change instinct fireballs at all, though.