*itch you guessing! . . .woo! . . . you was m'fckin right!

General Discussion
1

Okay. I’m going to keep this as simple as possible. There’s a lot of talk about the mechanic of guess breaking setting precedence over the fundemental knowing & recognition of the CB mechanic. I mean . . isn’t the point of the mechanic to visually recognize moves to break; which then would correlate to the designated button press? I would personally love to see some kind of mechanic change in accordance to this upon the release of S3. Probably not going to happen but eh . . it’s worth bringing up. There’s nothing worse than the moment when you get broken right before the start up frames of your AD or manual. . . . BRUUUUUUH lol. We’ve all been there, right? & God knows it’s absolutely annoying as ■■■■■. So here’s what I came up with.

Let’s force our KI enthusiast to learn, & be disciplined combo breakers by inducing a nomadic penalty function within the CB mechanic. Here’s where I introduce the idea of the “guessing frame”. This would be the minuscule window between the linker & manual/AD (or vice versa) that if the input within this particular frame is incorrect it would result in a bit longer lockout & a partial reset of the combo meter . . but if guessed correctly, the game goes on as it normally would . . YEA! THATS WTF YOU GET FOR GUESSING! (IF YOU GUESS WRONG) . . More than fair in my opinion. Why compromise the mechanics of such a great game by rewarding bad habits? This is probably farfetched & will never see the light of day, but it was worth bringing up. A lot of people may not agree . . but again. . it’s just my opinion. Thoughts?

2

I disagree…if you keep doing the same set up/ combo and I make the read and know your going to do light AD and i press light break…and break you…because I made the read…HOW IS THAT A GUESS???

I get what your saying, but again, how do you know your opponent was guessing? What if he made a read and figured out what your patterns are and Bam!..he broke your combo?

Are you saying he is a scrub because he didn’t wait for the 2nd hit of the AD?

That’s where I disagree with you…because I make these kind of reads all the time.

But even if they did guess…is that really such a big deal? The game is designed to have a back n forth between players. If you just kick the crap out of me with a 30 hit combo how fun is that?

Are you one of those players that gets mad when your opponent ACTUALLY FIGHTS BACK? Because I have encountered many opponents online that are like this.

COMBO BREAKING isn’t going to change… no need to whine about it… your going to get combo broken…a lot… its part of the game and you cant avoid it.

A guessing frame???LOL…come on man…thats just crazy!!! How can you determine the difference between a read and a guess? USE A COUNTER BREAKER! Make a read on a guess breaker, just like people make reads on you and break you on the first frame but you think its a guess!!

5 Likes
3

For starters, your disagree is merely an audible affirmation. I’m definitely not whining, as I’m among those with pro medals. With that said, I do have a pretty solid understanding of what is & or isn’t apart of the game. From the context in your response it would appear that you in fact do agree with me, because as I stated above, “if the guess is right, the game would carry on as it normally would” which would essentially be the same as making the read as you so “boisterously” put it. Maybe you comprehended what you read differently than it was written. I’m certainly not saying that if someone doesn’t break on the second hit confirm of an auto-double makes any enthusiast or novice a scrub. If that were the message I was trying to convey, then I would have said that plain & simple. To answer your question, I love watching my opponents try to fight back; they make for the best matches. What does that have to do with the mechanics in question? Let’s stay on topic.

4

I don’t agree with “guess breaking” being an issue. Since your a Pro Killer, then you should rarely be matched against low level players that guess break. So Im not sure where this comes into play for you.

The guess breakers that fail to guess correctly do get punished… they get locked out…and that is what your asking for basically.
You said it yourself…“This is far fetched and will probably never see the light of day”. SO then why even bring it up?

It just really bugs me when people yell out Guess Break, when its a game, with combo breakers, and that’s part of it…guess or read… its going to happen and gives the opponent a chance to not get the crap totally beat out of them with a 30 hit combo by Pros like you that know all the frame traps and all the tricks.

And my comment about whining wasnt necessarily directed to you…but to people that say Guess Break in general. You asked for thoughts and opinions…this is mine

5

What about Guess wake up attacks…or Guess counter hits? Should those be locked out?

6

I don’t really think this would work as well as you would hope it would. It’s almost impossible to really determine whether their breakers are really a guess or not. It’s possible that what they do press was based on something you did before in hopes that you would repeat it, or maybe it was a right combo breaker but it was mistimed.

7

You’re entitled to your opinion, & I respect your input. With the matchmaking system being in cahoots, I do get matched against novice or beginners regularly. It’s honestly 50/50 which is annoying. I get my fair share of the “guess breakers”. To be frank performing God like combos is possible without being counter broken, so that alone negates the notion that my idea should be disregarded. There is a difference between “guess breaking” & breaking too late or too soon, which essentially results in a lock out. I did not create the term “guess break”. The term exists because the action is as real, as it is just. What I’m asking for has nothing to do with getting locked out due to putting in the wrong button inputs. What I want is for the novice to take heart & actually be able to use their brains & learn the mechanics of the game as they were inteneded to be learned. I feel that the implementation of this idea would induce that. This would insure that most matches within the community would be friendly & more competitive; instead of little Timmy head butting his controller every time he finds himself in a combo lol. I only say its farfetched because there are greater bugs/issues within the current state of the game that need to be patched immediately. Again this is just an opinion forged from the heart of competitive play.

I’m not sure what you mean by “guess wake up attacks” . . Can you elaborate?

8

It is not impossible to distinguish the difference between a “guess break”, & a mistimed break/mistake lockout. Go back & reread the original passage. The notion that “a read” is passable as a form of guessing breaking is a pass. As stated above, if an attack is guess broken correctly the match would carry on as usual.

9

But what I’m saying is, even breaking on your “guesing frame” could be just a mistimed break. Like if you want to break the 2nd hit of an AD but they cancel into the linker fast enough where you couldn’t break in time and you get an orange lockout. I’ve seen failed reads like this happen with Shadow Counters too where you miss the break by literally a millisecond. Happened to me plenty of times.

10

Guess wake up attack …meaning Im just going to randomly do a DP no matter if my opponent jumps in or not. Maybe i guessed right , maybe i didn’t and whiffed

I just don’t think any kind of implementation to stop guessing will work. its too wide of an area that may or may not be a guess…therefor people that aren’t guess will be punished

11

Why not just make the break window a bit more strict? Maybe after the first hit of the auto doubles you can break it, but before the first hit you get an orange lockout. This was kinda what it was like is season 1, where break windows were much more strict, and so guess breaking was much less effective.

1 Like
12

I’m againts forcing anything on anyone…idk call me American lol

1 Like
13

It’s an interesting idea, at least in theory. A guess frame. A single instant that forces someone to process what they’re seeing on screen instead of instinctively mashing buttons as soon as they find themselves in a combo.

If you know what they’re going to do and you hit the right break, you get the breaker as normal, but you get punished if you guess wrong for jumping in and being incorrect during this “mash” window.

It makes sense. But I have to ask two questions:

  1. Should the person that got the break during this button mash frame get some type of reward beyond a normal combo breaker if they get it right? I mean, if they guess wrong, you’d have them punished worse than normal, so it stands to reason that trying to break during this period is higher risk, should it also be higher reward?

  2. If the opponent guesses right, what does it matter if there’s a mash window or not? I mean yes, you get punished worse if you button mash and guess wrong during this frame you’re talking about, but do you believe that alone will be enough of a deterrent for most people as to actually reduce guess breaks when the desired outcome can still be achieved?

I’ve seen some ideas proposed to reduce breaker window timing and now an idea to punish on first frame guess breaks. I get that pros want to minimize guess breaks because they want skill to win out as much as possible over luck, but is this the best route to take with non-pros?

I guess I just tend to wonder how much you can punish someone for guess breaking. If you don’t punish them enough, they’ll just keep guessing as opposed to learning the system better, but if you punish them too much, then maybe they avoid breaking altogether, which doesn’t seem like a better alternative.

Yeah, as @FallofSeraphs76 said, the lockout is the punishment. When you try to break and you guess wrong, the opponent gets to wail on your with heavy ADs for a while and do more damage without fear of getting broken.

If the lockout that we already have doesn’t deter someone from guess breaking, what makes you think a punishment frame (with the punishment that you outlined above) will? Honest question, not being rhetorical here.

It’s hard for me not to look at guess breaking as a two way street. Mixing in heavy ADs, using counter breakers, more manuals, etc are all tools that the offensive player can utilize to try and mess with the defensive player, but at the end of the day, everyone gets lucky sometimes. I don’t know how you reduce that luck factor in guess breaking to zero without getting rid of breakers entirely.

You can try and weed out the button mashers, but what if you simply condition them to wait a half second before mashing instead of forcing them to learn the system? If you’re a lower level player that just likes to go online and scrap a little, which sounds easier to you? Wait a half second or learn the system?

I like what you’re trying to do, really, I do. I just don’t know if you’re going to get lower level players, who know that they’re one weapon against getting combo’d is the combo breaker, to use that move more judiciously or force them to, as you said “take heart and learn the mechanics” and thus guess break less.

I get wanting to reduce the number of guess breakers by hurting button mashers more than they are already by the lockout, but if it doesn’t deter them from guess breaking and it doesn’t force them to learn the mechanics better when the guess break still works well enough for them to have fun with the game at low levels and you’re already getting the sweet deal of the lockout as an offensive player… I mean… Do you really see this as a viable solution? Again, not being rhetorical.

14

The purpose of the breaker system is not to react to something and break it. If it was then manuals and light linkers would not exist.

15

This is an audible affirmation, as I can see both light linkers & manuals for the characters within the roster that actually telegraph.

16

Not in time to react and break.

17

I’m going to reply straight to the first post, without having read any of the others and make a point that leans towards a feedback request. Please note that none of the rest of this post, as harsh as it might come across, is not intended to apportion blame of any kind on any individual or group mentioned.

The main point, which I will validate via examples from the game itself, is that it is impossible for some players to “visually recognize moves to break; which then would correlate to the designated button press”, as the OP puts it. The points I make are based on my own personal experience with the game, but other players I’m sure can at the very least understand and I have even had conversations on the matter with other players from the forums during exhibition sets.

In my opinion, the current Combo Breaker mechanic as it exists is fine. However, if you have, as I do, no sight at all, the problems come with trying to recognise moves and their strengths by sound alone. The reasoning for this is, at least partially, placed on the shoulders of the developers/sound designers. The issue comes down to this: lights, mediums and heavies, during a live match, are very difficult to distinguish. Speed, for example, between Thunder’s light and medium df+p is hardly different at all, with the heavy one only being slightly different. That’s just one example, there are more that I can’t think of right now. Occasionally there’ll be a move I can recognise on reaction, but it’s nowhere near as instant or recognisable as the visuals might be for a player who relies on them.

To stop people who can’t see at the very least from guess breaking nearly every single combo (unless they know the player’s style well from previous encounters and even then…), I propose that the sound design be changed to better reflect light vs medium vs heavy attack strengths. I’m not talking Streetfighter (anime style) punching sounds that are based on strength, and wouldn’t fit within KI’s sound design. I think that even at the very least, if they change the speed of the moves even small amounts to better reflect the difference, with maybe additional elements added in for assistance, that would be of great help. Who knows. Maybe the idea of different punch sounds for different strengths could be taken within the confines of what they have now - we know there are specific sounds for heavies (which because of the speed of moves as previously discussed make them recognisable only in particular situations), but that could be extended to lights and mediums as well to lessen the need for guess breaking amongst those with an inability to utilise the visual cues.

As for your point about the lockout lasting longer if an incorrect guess break was input? In my opinion, that’s not even reasonable. In 3 seconds characters can do a lot of damage (not even based off skill of players but off of damage output alone) and lengthening that period, I believe, would only serve to frustrate those who are already frustrated with damage imbalances such as they might be.

I’m not saying slow the game to a crawl, keep it at the frantic pace, just make it easier to tell what strength attack is being used. Even Jago’s Endokukens don’t sound different on release, only on travel across the screen. Therefore, you have to jump and risk getting hit unless it’s a light which you can see coming a lot of the time.

Hope I make myself clear. If not, please feel free to ask for clarification and I will answer what I can.

18

To answer the foundational question, I do not see my idea as an end all be all solution; simply because of the fact that there will always be an mass amount of button mashers, period. However, we should atleast ask ourselves if we’re actually supposed to guess. Are we? Or has IG designed the combat system with enough intricacies, that we are in fact able to actually see the telegraphs from each attack & then make the smarter decision in accordance to breaking. I mean, this isn’t a guessing game in my opinion. You don’t have to guess when you can see. If you were given a cheat sheet for an exam that you never studied for & the professor gave you permission to use it, would you use it? Or would you guess all the answers & risk getting some right, & some wrong; resulting in a mediocre exam score?

19

Yes, IG, DH and MS created a system in which you are sometimes meant to guess. As I said before, you cannot see the strengths of most manuals and light linkers and them react and break accordingly as the break window is too small.

20

I can respect this. I commend the honesty & the candor in the message that you’re conveying; & to an extent I actually agree in accordance to the nature of the sound quality. However, visual training is provided with the modes in single player that allow those who are lacking in there visual gameplay to make adjustments. Combo breaker training, & master mode breaker options in the menus. They even telegraph with animations as an option select within the menus of training mode.

Personally, I feel there is no reason to guess if you’re not blind or have impaired vision.