I disagree with this. If I miss a manual it’s because I didn’t know the strength of the attack period… not be cause the window was too small. Yes they are harder to break but it’s not impossible to see them with a fair amount of breaking practice.
I’m not opposed to the idea of high risk high reward in this case. You bring up a really good point. Maybe a heavy knock down on guess break would suffice?
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I’m sorry but you’re wrong. This discussion has been had several times, and for most manuals and light linkers the break window ends before the limits of human reaction time.
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Ah, I see what you mean. This is a bit different scenario though. The risks aren’t as prevalent as everyone in the roster does not have a wake up game.
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Ok… well we’ll agree to disagree. Either I’m wrong, or you & the ethusiasts that indulged in these “several conversations” just aren’t able to make reads fast enough to break manuals. Kanye Shrug
If you’re going to try and end on an insult then don’t expect me to not reply.
Are we making reads now or manuals? If we are making reads rather than reacting to it then guess what, we’re guess breaking.
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Don’t take offense. This is just a healthy debate lol. I’m not insulting you. You’re telling me that you aren’t able to break manuals or lights without guessing because of your own personal reasons. I’m telling you I can break them because of mine… it’s not about being right or wrong. . . It’s a matter of “can & can’t”.
Good points, no doubt. So I would ask this:
If there will always be a mass amount of button mashers, and knowing that this part of the community of players will always exist, do you believe that your idea is both necessary and helpful, even if it’s admittedly not an end all be all solution?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying it should be disregarded because it doesn’t fix the problem 100%. That’s an impossible standard. I’m not saying it should be disregarded at all. I’m simply asking if further punishing guess breakers on top of the lockout mechanic that we already have in place is necessary given that, by your own admission, there will always be a mass of button mashers.
Do you think that your idea will cut down on the number of button mashers and make some guess breakers think “okay, I’m getting absolutely wrecked trying to break early because of this new early frame punish mechanic they put in. I need to learn this system better if I want to keep playing.”
Personally, I tend to view the more casual audience and lower level players as the type of people that just want to drop in for a little while, play some matches, have fun, and learn the basics. Maybe they went through the tutorial with Jago and maybe they didn’t. Maybe they learned how to put a combo together and how to break it and counter break, maybe even get a few manuals here and there, and that’s about it.
So do you think that IG should make a fundamental change to the combo system to further punish these players beyond the current lockout, and do you think that adding this would have a positive influence on forcing a lot of these people or even a decent percentage of these people in to learning the system more, memorizing how each characters AD’s look, etc to the point where they can break on reaction?
I get that guess breaking early is a bad habit. I totally understand where you’re coming from there. But is there a huge difference between guess breaking early and waiting a moment and then guess breaking? If they’re going to guess break, they’re going to guess break and I think that’s regardless of whether we’re supposed to or whether IG wants players to learn the system or not. It’s just a consequence of being able to break at all, wouldn’t you say?
You can try and steer people toward learning the system by your idea or LCDs idea of filling up a manual breaker meter to reduce guess breaks or restricting the time within which a breaker can be successfully executed, but I’d worry a bit that the two way interaction at lower and intermediate levels could suffer for it.
Obviously at higher levels, players want to take as much guess work out of the equation as possible, and I understand how frustrating it can be when someone guess breaks, turns the tables and beats you when you know that you had them dead to rights, but so long as the system has this two way interaction, I don’t see how you can successfully minimize guess breaks to the point where you’d feel satisfied in losing to someone that broke a late combo because you know that they couldn’t have guessed and that you lost to skill as opposed to luck.
I mean, if you’re a high level player and you’re playing a lower level player that’s guess breaking a ton, wouldn’t you have far more weapons at your disposal to combat that? Mixing different AD’s, mixing up your combos, using more manuals, throwing in some counter breakers, etc. Ya know, getting in their head? I mean, I could see a low skill player getting lucky with a few breakers here and there, but skill still wins out in KI, I think.
These are all extremely good points that I hadn’t even thought of. Well said my friend. I have to agree with you. I would at very least want to bridge the gap between competitive & casual play. Maybe this idea could be like a new mode within the game or something. As for the ki community overall this probably wouldn’t be the best idea as it pertains to play styles from all walks, whether they be the luckiest of guessers, or the pros of tech.
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You haven’t actually addressed a single point I’ve raised, everything you’ve said has been excessive words with little or no relevant meaning. It is a matter of right and wrong and you are, quite simply, wrong.
The limits of human reaction time mean that you cannot react to most manuals in time to break them. You can see them of course, and build a mental image of your opponent’s manual habits and make a read on a break based on that, but that is actually guessing and not a reaction.
When you reply to this post, please directly address the above point which you have failed to do in your previous posts.
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Thanks for the quick response. However, I should’ve reitterated for clarification’s sake. I have no sight whatsoever. Therefore, whilst I respect what you’re saying from the standpoint of a visually focused/reliant player, I will repeat again that the options, such as you describe them (an option in this case being defined as any way of breaking visually) are completely and utterly useless to me.
I’m glad you agree with me on the sound quality, do you agree with me on the speed difference as well? I mean even if they had to increase the light df+p and slow down the df+mp a little (we’re not talking much here, but I can’t explain it exactly), then the DF+HP could maybe be fine as it is with thunder. I mean this would go with all the characters, as they all have moves that look similar sound wise and speed wise, which as I’ve stated before makes matters worse.
I’m pleased you respect my opinion as so many others have done on Ultra Combo, it’s good to know that players of KI with a total lack of vision as well as other disabilities are not being ignored. I mean, look at the KV audio cues/burnout cues for Cinder. Yes, the first versions didn’t quite fit the style of the game according to some people and yes, there’s still possible room for improvement (aria’s body switching, for example). But what was essentially a rant at the time about how I felt overwhelmed and undermined by the ability of other players who could use their sight as their main defense against me (unknowingly of course), was still included into a game that a lot of people are surprised I can play. I don’t see why the speed/sound design flaws, such as I or others might see them, should stop me from knowing what strength of linker, autodouble etc I need to break just like anyone who has enough sight can determine that from animation.
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You’re saying one thing & I’m simply saying another. We disagree with one another & thats fine.
Maybe I’m just decent at reacting. It’s hard to combat what you’re saying when it’s an opinion & not a fact. I can see most manuals no problem & react to them just fine. I do it regularly at high levels of play . . yes, it is much harder to break them because the window is so small, but that doesn’t mean you “have” to guess or make an educated read. I feel that if you are visually in tune with the telegraphs of each character then breaking really isn’t an issue whether they are light auto-doubles or manuals; granted you will certainly get locked out often for mistimed inputs which I do . . & thats okay. I’m more often locked out for mistimed input rather than a wrong input altogether. Again… this is my experience at my level of play. I can’t speak for what anyone else can or can’t do.
Thanks man! Always appreciate an open mind. It’s a tough issue, no doubt. I had the idea of counter breaker whiffs returning both players to neutral stance as an incentive for the offensive player to use more counter breakers at high levels as a weapon to combat guess breaking. Some liked it, some didn’t. Like I said, it’s a tough issue.
You don’t want higher level players to feel alienated by having too much luck involved in a match, but you don’t want to alienate lower level players by making the two way system too restrictive or punitive. It’s a difficult line for the devs to walk and I don’t envy them for it. I think that what we have now works well, but I certainly see both sides of the coin here.
I actually thought of something along the lines of a separate mode not too long ago. The idea of having a mode where there were no combo breakers / counter breakers. The only reversal weapon in terms of fighting back against an aggressor that everyone would have would be a shadow counter, but obviously you’d have to block the opponent’s advance.
I’m not sure how that would look or how that would work, but I wonder if that would give higher level players a version of the game that they’d want, where opening up an opponent rewards them with the ability to do the damage that they want to do without fear of a guess break. Sure, the AD damage would probably have to be reimagined somehow so that people didn’t only do heavy ADs, but that could be worked out. Manuals would also have to be reimagined in order to maintain some level of usefulness, maybe in conjunction with a reworked KV meter.
Not saying that’d work well or that it’d even be fun, but I’d still be curious how that version of KI would look, not as a replacement to current KI, but just as a sort of alternate mode that changed how people approached the characters and the battle in general.
I’m not actually basing my points on opinion, but on scientific research into the limits of human reaction time, this is the key point that you’re not getting. You probably are very good at reacting but even you have your limits, and the speed of most manuals surpasses them.
…mmmhhhh… I don’t know what the actual definition of guess breaking is but I’m certain of one thing:
I’m terrible at Combo breaking.
Some characters are easier then others to break In my experinence. But All in all I don’t think I want to learn how to distinguish sadira’s light punch and medium kick.
However,
If they did change the breaking system drasticlly, I would not like it. We don’t need anymore blockout symbols.
If people are guess breaking too much, bloody deal with it. I don’t think you can change it.
I comprehend your “logic and theoretic scientific explanations” just fine. While they may be true, they don’t set enough precedence in the realm of KI’s gameplay to be relevant. I noted my limits, so mentioning it again is kind of redundant. As I said. . We’ll agree to disagree.
You’re being deliberately obtuse at this point.
I’m not the one talking about scientific research in conjunction with Combo breakers. . . lol
Yeah, why let facts get in the way of good hyperbole?
I think you mean it the other way around?