If You Could Nerf One Character

Your definition of consistency is extremely narrow and a bit selective. Consistency, as a definition, refers to a firmness or adherence in character or composition. It does not mean x, y and z are consistent since x is x and y is x and z is x. That is copying, cloning or any number of other terms.

In an attempt to explain again what I mean, let me beat a mildy decaying horse and go back to DP’s. A typical DP has a few characteristics (vertical, unsafe, high priority, etc). It’s because these things that we can look at a DP in KI, SFV or Guilty Gear and recognize, “hey, that’s a DP”. Does that mean all DP’s in all three games are going to function the exact same way? No. No it does not. The general characteristics of the move will remain (traveling up, insecure, snobbishly first, and so on) but the individual implementation will have nuance.

In most games, a full-screen advancing special is usually unsafe. Sure, some have an invulnerability to something or can be cancelled or adjusted to make safe or use some kind of resource to adjust. But typically speaking in game balance, a special that will travel full screen quickly will be unsafe because that’s the trade off. Since Jago received a treatment like this, it seems IG is taking this approach and thus I suggested the “uncharged” version of the move that goes so far across screen saw an adjustment, a move that I use frequently on a character I love to play. I did this for consistency because the type of move it is seems to follow this approach.

Am I missing something here? Does my logic make sense to anyone? Or am I actually missing something and consistency refers to carbon copying something and not a similarity in the overall character or composition of something? That would lead to anything with meat and cheese between bread consistently being called a sandwich and not every variation of meat or cheese requiring a different, fundamental and categorical term.

Edit: On the first part, I meant that his approach to consistency was a bit narrow-minded. The definition be uses is too broad to ever find use outside or blatant mimicry.

I was part of that thread, and I believe the message we gave you was “try using your DP to interrupt your opponent’s pressure, it’s a strong defensive tool” which I think is a pretty different message than “use your DP and shut up”. If you wanted specific advice for how to handle a certain character’s pressure, there are lots of ways to extend the discussion, including you posting a match video where you get mauled by a character, or analyzing, say… Nicky playing a tournament match against that character. Nobody was asking you to shut up, but the conversation stalled because your analysis of your own play was “my DPs are usually blocked” which means we needed to steer the analysis towards your own play (or the play of people whose DPs aren’t blocked as often), and away from Fulgore himself.

For what it’s worth, I think Fulgore having early S3 spin speed with 2-cost pip cancels is a nerf compared to Fulgore’s current state. I would much rather have 2x the pip cancels available than a few extra shadow moves.

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So basically if its a full screen forward moving attack, other properties such as throw invulnerability, low crush, hits low and goes under fireballs, overhead, and anything else i’m forgetting are completely irrelevant when it comes to how safe the attack should be on block? Solely the fact that the attack goes full screen is reason enough for it to be unsafe on block? What should we normalize next?

And Infilament, I saved a few replays of problems I’ve run into and then just never posted them, I will say you and sullen mosquito were definitely the most helpful on that thread, so thank you for that, you definitely weren’t part of the “you have DP so shut up” group.

Typically speaking, a move that allows you to close a full screen gap quickly and punish an opponent’s whiff or missed input is unsafe on block. This isn’t a new concept. For a long time, this design wasn’t apparent in KI which is why I stated in my original point that with Jago, the other last hold out for relatively neutral/safe full screen specials, receiving an adjustment to be full combo punishable on block like Arbiter and others, I suggested Fulgore for the same on his base attack.

Now, other properties would dictate in the grand scheme of balancing how unsafe it would be while resources and quirks might provide a safe alternative (using the shadow form to make it safe or at least unpunishable). In Fulgore’s case, we have pips and charging the attack to make it safe. Given the adjustment to Jago, it seemed like a no-brainer for consistency’s sake. Fulgore has options to avoid being punished on a full screen approach and is now the only full screen character that can’t be full combo punished anyway just for using the base move, as Heavy Blade Dash is only… -3, right?

My point being is this wasn’t some pick on Fulgore nerf or tweak. This was a suggestion looking at the total picture of the game, similar moves and Fulgore’s existing options.

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I guess my point though, is that in a game like KI where practically every normal can be cancelled into a special for a full combo, what difference does it make if something is more unsafe vs. less unsafe? Unsafe is unsafe, simple as that. Regardless of whether a move is -5 or -10, it still results in a full combo punish (provided the spacing is the same).

So really the only difference we’re talking about is a combo starting with a heavy rather than being started by a light. In a 15 hit combo that’s almost a negligible amount of damage, and the auto doubles, linkers, or manuals will determine the overall damage more than what button you used to start the combo. Its not like street fighter where being more unsafe means completely different combos can be used resulting in much higher damage.

You’re wrong, actually.

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I’m not much of a tech guy, but even I know that the first hit of a combo gives you double damage, so starting out with a safer light attack won’t give you nearly as much of a damage output as an unsafe heavy attack, and that in turn affects your entire combo and how much max damage you can get from it.

…just saying.

Ok then I concede, I know I’m frustrated. Sorry. I’ll go.

So for what it’s worth. Here’s an opinion from a “scrub” fulgore player. As far as your consistency argument it’s bogus. The game would be lame as hell. Everyone doing the same crap , BORING. Anyway as far as fulgore goes I’ve seen this argument before from people about his meter. He has always been unique from others in his meter. I think players fell in love with his eye lasers and vortex. To piggy back on lemonhunters comment about going for damage instead of setup. I’ve been playing fulgore that way since I started early season 2. It’s always been that teleprorts and lasers slow your reactor speed. Now with his nerfs his game plan works perfect with my style. Fulgore has always been one of the easiest characters to break. I’m only fair at manual usage so I learned to play the auto double counter break system. They see it coming and that’s when you hit them hard. I lose because of my defense insufficiency. Not because of my meter “insufficiency”. I regularly have meter to shadow counter or use shadow for ender purposes and that’s from a scrub. I lose because of other reasons. Not a a lack of meter. There’s plenty of people in this forum who have bodied me that can attest to that. I’m no pro. But to say you never get meter is bs.

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Apologies to sonic dolphin on ruining his thread with discussion.

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This is gonna become a running gag isn’t it :joy:

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No gag. I hag nothing to add as far as nerfs go. Maybe on rashes recovery but mostly that’s just salt spilling over. I love the thread just can’t stand the fulgore hate. Players have to evolve. He’s top 5 but learn to play without the crutch of eye lasers. Imo

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May I ask what you mean?

Other than orchids grenade affecting her like arbiters grenade affects him the game is awesome. Everyone having the same moves and abilities would be lame.

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That last post was in response to your question. The game imo is plenty balanced.

I feel that way too. And I guess I wasn’t being very clear. In no way, shape, form or fashion was I trying to say I wanted the game to be uniform across characters, moves, etc. I was only saying that, regarding consistency, IG seemed to be moving toward full screen moves being punishable, something we see for moves like that in many games. So for consistency of that specific archetype of move, I wouldn’t mind seeing Fulgore’s base move adjusted. That’s it. Fulgore has fantastic options off his dash/advance other people don’t and the game handles its variety extremely well.

I got ya. I don’t play any other games so I can’t speak to that. My bogus comment was for misery and his rambling. I understand your point but imo fulgore is just fine where he is.

I’m not going to wade through the above mess again to pick out specific bits to respond to, but fyi,

  1. The main change to Jago from 3.7 wasn’t that the fullscreen-reaching heavy wind kick became unsafe on block – this move was always unsafe against any character who had a far-enough-reaching normal that was active on frame 7 to pick up the punish, which was most characters. (Infil pointed out that ARIA was an exception.) The main change was that the midscreen-reaching medium wind kick became unsafe on block.
  2. Safe forward-moving specials that reach midscreen are actually the norm in KI – almost every character has one. Jago losing his made him an exception, and as a result Jago is worse than a majority of the cast at exerting control over the midscreen.
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have you tried playing another character

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Just started playing Raam. So far he’s been a lot of fun, but in about 3 hours of using him I had 4 people ragequit on me, kinda weird seeing as how I hadn’t seen anyone do that in a long, long time.