How would you rebalance S1 & S2 characters before season 3?

[Iago407]

@STORM179

I appreciate your willingness to read and engage with my walls of text.

You bet, man! Same here, no doubt.

@STORM179

I appreciate that you think my arguments were reasonable, but I think you may have slightly misjudged me. My Sadira comment was laced with more than a hint of flippancy. She’s still technically my main, but I play Hisako almost as much if not more these days, and my tertiary character is ARIA.

I think that I did, actually. From the way you were talking about kitchen sink characters of season 2 and the way you seemed to be leaning toward season one by calling it “the core” of the game and a few smaller examples, I just inferred a bit of bias when I probably shouldn’t have. My bad!

@STORM179

it’s that I think both styles speak to different audiences and I think the variation between seasons allows each type of player to find something he likes.

And I get that, I do. It’s just that I personally think that the difference in options each character has in season one versus season two is so jarring that I think there could still be some evening out and sort of moving the outer edges of the spectrum closer together without forgoing that sense of variety that you’re talking about.

I mean… I look at Jago and Sabrewulf on one end and Kan Ra and Cinder on the other and as a Sabrewulf main, I can’t help but think that my character got jobbed a bit when he was created. Is he viable? Certainly. But does he entertain me as much as some other characters? Eh… It’s not just in the number of options or whatever, but in overall style and flash as well.

I think that you can add a move here and there, add some style and flash and what not, and still keep the characters from season one straight forward. That’s what I’d want to see anyways. I don’t think that anything I’m proposing here is overly drastic.

@STORM179

it’s just that in a world of finite time and competing resources I would prefer that the devs instead spend their energy making new kick-■■■ characters and content.

Absolutely, this is the balance. I just don’t personally know how much enhancing season one and two would cost in terms of taking energy away from making new characters and content. You seem to think of the time as this finite space, and if I knew that there was an awesome mode that wouldn’t be made because of what I’m talking about, or they’d have to trim the roster or something like that, I’d be right there with you. It’s not worth it.

But we really don’t know that. If they have the time to do both… To give us the kind of season three that they want to give us AND touch up season one and two, then that’s what I’d want to see happen.

@STORM179

I’d say that to a certain extent we all have to collectively get over the idea that Sadira rules the air. She certainly did in S1, but with the advent of Omen and Cinder that supremacy is no longer complete. The thing is, though, is that’s ok.

@STORM179

that doesn’t mean that no one can ever match or exceed her in aspects of that as the game continues.

See I find these two statements a bit strange. It’s okay that her air supremacy is no longer complete given what other characters can do and just because she was known for that, doesn’t mean others can’t match or exceed her in aspects of that.

Wouldn’t you agree that TJ and Cinder have much more going on in terms of their ground assault? So if they’re that much better AND more varied on the ground and they can match or exceed what she can do in the air, then isn’t she somewhat obsolete from a character design perspective?

Now that’s not to say she’s pure garbage on the ground. She’s not. But compared to TJ and Cinder? Again, I’m not talking about a viability perspective here. I know that she can hang with any other character in the game thanks to what she has in the air, her instinct, her damage, etc. But from a merely conceptual perspective, the idea of what she’s meant to be able to do, wouldn’t it benefit her construct to have more options in the air, if for no other reason then to solidify what she’s supposed to be to begin with?

Just because a character doesn’t get their can handed to them doesn’t mean their concept can’t be further enhanced or the core of their gameplay strengthened or reinforced.

Which kinda gets back to my main point. Whenever someone brings up changes or ideas for characters, there’s a substantial pocket of people that tend to react with “that’s not needed” or that’s fine as it is." If it’s “that make them OP,” that’s one thing. That’s a balance standpoint and I’m all for balance. But to me, that’s not the question. Also, if you simply prefer what a character has to what someone is proposing the character should have, I get that. I do.

But for me, it’s not a matter of if the car starts or if you like the old paint job more than the new one. But can the car be upgraded in ways without taking time away from other, more pressing needs? If that can be done, what upgrades would you want to see? Hopefully the car runs more smoothly than this metaphor lol, but I think you get what I’m saying here.

If they can give us season 3 exactly as they want to give it to us and they have the ability to improve upon previous characters either by reinforcing what they can do or giving them some more style and flash, again without hurting the game’s balance… I guess I just don’t see why that would be a bad thing or something undesirable. If it can’t be done, it can’t be done. But if KI’s to remain in this beta form, I’d like to see them continue to improve upon anything and everything. Keep going with the UI, keep going with the older characters, keep putting out new content. Keep KI evolving, even is as you keep it balanced and most importantly familiar to those already playing (in other words, don’t turn Jago in to a grappler out of nowhere lol).

[STORM179]

If it’s possible to make the absolute best version of S3 and do little tweaks to update characters, then sure, why not? I just don’t think that is generally possible. In business there are always tradeoffs, and the videogame industry is somewhat notorious for tending to operate within very demanding deadlines. Keits has mentioned a few times in Twitch streams that the team was working consistent 12 hour days trying to keep up with the S2 schedule. And from the perspective of the developer, upgrading things that the consumer has already paid for tends to be a less solid investment than making something new for the consumer to purchase.

@Iago407

Wouldn’t you agree that TJ and Cinder have much more going on in terms of their ground assault? So if they’re that much better AND more varied on the ground and they can match or exceed what she can do in the air, then isn’t she somewhat obsolete from a character design perspective?

Now that’s not to say she’s pure garbage on the ground. She’s not. But compared to TJ and Cinder?

I wouldn’t actually. Or rather, I would for TJ, and would not for Cinder. But TJ, contra what you keep saying, doesn’t actually have an air game - he has a single move that he can use to catch juggles and jumpers. That does not an air game make in my opinion. TJ comes nowhere near matching or exceeding Sadira in the air, period. Omen is perhaps a better example, but he too is largely committed when performing his shenanigans in the air, while Sadira always has a host of options.

Cinder’s ground game isn’t super spectacular. He has a tough time in general opening people up, trailblazer has awful priority, and most of his approaches rely on sticking you with pyre bombs. His super-close range pressure is pretty scary, but his normals actually aren’t very good outside that space. Does Cinder have more options on the ground? Sure. But in absolute terms, his ground game isn’t all that phenomenal IMO. His air game is also not spectacular in absolute terms - the only thing that makes it noteworthy is how easily he can convert a stray hit into his recapture. Trailblazer juggles are pretty, sure, but trailblazer itself isn’t great outside of pyre bombs holding someone in place because the priority is so terrible. So yeah, I think Sadira’s air game is better than his too. Her juggles aren’t as flashy or as hard to recognize, but she gets far more b.ang (really censors? -_-) for her buck from what she’s got, and I think that counts for something. So yeah, I’ll give Cinder his win on the ground compared to Sadie, but I’d disagree pretty strongly that he matches her in the air.

Sadira will not be obsolete from a character design perspective until they make someone who is as impossible to reliably anti-air as she is, and who has as many strong options off a raw jump as she does. Cinder gets a lot off taking to the air - including some things that Sadira does not. I just don’t see why that is such an issue - she also gets things off her jump that Cinder does not. Character archetypes aren’t this untouchable totem where someone having something all of a sudden makes everyone else who has that same thing obsolete or useless. Hisako has a command grab, so does Thunder. Hisako having two command grabs doesn’t mean she’s a “better” grappler than Thunder or that he’s now obsolete - their grabs each have their own properties that make them better suited to different things and work within the context of the characters’ moves and gameplan. Same with Sadira and all the other aerial characters. There’s room enough in the sky for all of them to coexist, so long as each of their gameplans remain unique and viable.

[oShift2oVet78]

1. Get rid of Cinder’s pillar on that stupidly safe flashkick
2. The block stun on Cinders ground pound whiffs is too long.
3. Sadira doesn’t take that much skill to play with, not sure if anything can be done. Horribly annoying spam character straight from an NRS game.
4. Too easy to teleport in this game. Should be slowed down or metered.
5. Kan-Ra is a terribly designed zoner. Floods the screen with dustballs and has to many escape options. Glacius is another so-called zoner with alot of escape options and bail out wake ups.Look at Dahlsim for an idea of how to design one of these types.
6. I don’t like Rash in the lineup, at all. Just my opinion.

…I could go on and on…KI is a great game though. Nobody can agree on everything.

[Iago407]

@STORM179

If it’s possible to make the absolute best version of S3 and do little tweaks to update characters, then sure, why not? I just don’t think that is generally possible. In business there are always tradeoffs, and the videogame industry is somewhat notorious for tending to operate within very demanding deadlines.

Yeah that’s what I’m mainly getting at. If it’s possible. If this is something that they’re already budgeting in to their time. If the time is available. I know that there is a finite amount of time, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that taking time to do one thing would automatically take time away from something else. I know that seems like an odd thing to say, but if they have the time to devote to season one and season two changes. If that’s available somehow, I’d like to see it.

@STORM179

Keits has mentioned a few times in Twitch streams that the team was working consistent 12 hour days trying to keep up with the S2 schedule.

Yeah, but look at the time frame within which season two was created. From everything I’ve read, IG had only been doing actual work on the game for about a month before show TJ at E3. They then started putting out content roughly four months later and then every month after. That’s a torrid pace to have to maintain.

In comparison, season 2 ended before E3 this year and while they’re working on Shadow Jago and more Shadows, it’s relatively safe to assume that they’ve been working in some capacity on season 3 for at least a few months now, and they have another seven months before season 3 actually starts up. Granted, we don’t know how much will actually appear at the beginning of season 3, but I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that with a much more experience under their belts and seemingly a good deal more time to put the next season together, the deadlines and breakneck pace of development should (hopefully) ease up to something more reasonable.

@STORM179

he has a single move that he can use to catch juggles and jumpers.

He also has two 1-2 punch combos in mid air as well. TJ has the ability to combo an opponent up in to the air, hit them twice, then return them to the ground for more damage. His air game might not be on Sadira’s level, but it’s still pretty good from where I’m sitting. Maybe that ability doesn’t constitute an air game to you, but to me, he at least has some options when he gets an opponent off the ground. Two small combos and the ability to return them to the ground for more damage. That’s not nothin.

@STORM179

Character archetypes aren’t this untouchable totem where someone having something all of a sudden makes everyone else who has that same thing obsolete or useless.

Yeah, I knew the word “obsolete” was a bit strong when I used it. I know what you mean about archetypes and I also get what you’re saying about Thunder and Hisako. The same could be said for TJ and Sadira in this regard, as what they do in the air is completely different.

When I say that Sadira’s the “air” character, I know I’m probably putting her in a box by saying that she should be the best at it, but my issue isn’t that others have an air game and “that’s her thing.” It’s that others have an air game and a good deal more in addition to that and she doesn’t a whole lot, at least not to the extent that some others (like Omen or Cinder, for example) tend to have.

That’s more of why I’d want to see her get more going on in the air. Not because her air game must be improved because she’s the air character and others can do stuff in the air. I completely agree that there’s enough room in the sky for all of them to coexist. No doubt.

But that’s sort of my issue with a lot of the season one characters. Since many of them were more or less conceived around a certain archetype while season two seems to blend archetypes or iterate off of multiple archetypes, it tends to make some of the season one characters feel a bit bland in comparison.

Now, when I say that, I’m not looking for IG to take Sabrewulf and give him a teleport and a command grab and what not. For me, it’s more of an issue of “how can we give the season one characters more variety without changing what they’re supposed to do?” It’s also a matter in some cases of how can IG give characters a bit more flash in their move sets, again, without changing the moves intentions.

These are the types of things that I’d be looking to do to improve season one characters (along with streamlining some of season two’s characters). I know you don’t see this as a necessity and that’s fine. I would like to see characters continue to grow and evolve over time as the game grows and evolves over time. I think that can be done, and I’d hope that it could be done without sacrificing anything in terms of season 3 content. If they already intend to go in and rebalance season’s one and two in preparation for season 3 though, then it’d be nice if they could revaluate the whole roster and see how characters can be improved upon in a variety of areas without changing what they do and how they were conceived.

[STORM179]

@Iago407

He also has two 1-2 punch combos in mid air as well. TJ has the ability to combo an opponent up in to the air, hit them twice, then return them to the ground for more damage. His air game might not be on Sadira’s level, but it’s still pretty good from where I’m sitting. Maybe that ability doesn’t constitute an air game to you, but to me, he at least has some options when he gets an opponent off the ground. Two small combos and the ability to return them to the ground for more damage. That’s not nothin.

The function of TJ’s 1-2 target combo in the air is not materially different from what anyone in the cast can do with a single air normal. He cannot pop you up, 1-2 you in the air, and then return you to the ground within combo. He can choose to 1-2 you and let you fall, or choose to catch you with tremor for the recap. Maya gets more off of her air juggles with dagger->dagger->mantis. His 1-2 isn’t special, and in any case, Sadira can 1-2-3 you with light->medium-medium, and still follow up with additional juggles. Even Kan has better air options, in that he can at least cancel an air normal into scarabs on hit. Anyone with a juggle ender can pop someone up into the air and then hit them once or twice more…I guess the fact that cyclone pops them high enough to allow TJ time to jump up to tag them again is something unique, but I can’t find myself able to call that an “air game”.

On the other things, I’ll just say let’s agree to disagree. We’ve probably taken up enough of this thread with our back and forth.

[Frodo54]

Lolwut. You’re saying that the most immobile character in the game has too many escape options? Bruh…

[Iago407]

@STORM179

He cannot pop you up, 1-2 you in the air, and then return you to the ground within combo

Is that right? That must’ve been taken out of the game at some point. I specifically remember when TJ came out, someone showing me a combo where they did exactly that and I learned it. Unfortunately, it’s been forever since I’ve used TJ regularly enough to even recall it and the person told me on the old board so I have no way to find it.

If they removed this, then I definitely stand corrected.

Sorry I couldn’t convince you, but I think that we can at least agree that if, given the right circumstances, the team were to go back and rebalance season one and season two in preparation for season three, that they had time to add a little here and there without forcing them to work 12 hour days and without hurting the current balance of the game, that older characters could be spruced be spruced up a bit.

I now that this isn’t your first choice of how IG should spend their time (or second or third lol), but at the very least, I think you see where I’m coming from and why, even if we might not be on the same page with the overall idea to begin with. Regardless, I thought it was a good conversation and I appreciate you point of view.

---

As for the topic itself, does anyone have any other ideas in terms of how they would improve existing characters, either from gameplay/mechanical standpoint or from a more aesthetic/flasth standpoint? Curious if there are any other ideas that people might have for either season one or season two characters.

[oShift2oVet78]

So you say…Puddling and an invincible wakeup soud pretty"mobile" to me. BTW, Aganos it he most immobile. That’s a fact.

[Frodo54]

Aganos has a dash and a full-screen move. Glacius doesnt

[Infilament]

@Frodo54

Aganos has a dash and a full-screen move. Glacius doesnt

Eh, I’ll take Glacius’s Cold Shoulder as a mobility tool over anything Aganos has, for sure. Glacius can actually use Cold Shoulder to sneak under jumping people (and it’s safe on block)… Aganos kinda has to just hope Natural Disaster works, or react to something. Natural Disaster is a good move that definitely has its uses, but as an all-purpose mobility tool, Cold Shoulder is better.

Aganos’s dashes are so slow they are basically not worth mentioning; I’m not sure I’ve ever seen them used in a way that doesn’t get him immediately killed. It’s pretty tough for him to even backdash throw attempts and recover in time to punish, let alone use it for mobility.

[JEFFRON27]

But lacius can STILL move faster than Aganos. Aganos may have a dash but it’s still VERY slow and really not much use. Glacius can cover better distance by jumping.

[TexAceFGC]

The one thing I would like to see is in the throws. Why is it that you can make the read of your opponent trying to throw you and you make the read to tech it only to be both in neutral?

I feel like the person making the read to tech should be at an advantage. If you don’t make the read, you take damage but if you make the read, your opponent doesn’t suffer from anything. Where’s the two way interaction in that as far as risk/rewards?

[MBABanemobius]

What if it wasn’t a read, they both went to throw at the same time and one player was slower? As the player that teched they would be at an advantage because they were slower.

[TexAceFGC]

Then that’s just one of those situations where you have to deal with it. Kind of like when players aren’t combo punishing whiffed counter breakers but punish those with a grab only to get counter broken because the input of grab (light punch + light kick) are connecting with the last few frames of the counter breaker.

[WheresAARon]

BUFF EVERYONE

/thread

[TexAceFGC]

Glacius’ Puddle Punch isn’t fully invincible. You can grab him out of all three strengths and @Infilament can vouch for that too. He tested it out after I pointed it out.

[Infilament]

Giving the defense the advantage after a teched throw isn’t a good idea.

[TexAceFGC]

Can you elaborate your opinion why you think its not? I’m really curious. You really break it down and would like to hear your side of that idea.

[Infilament]

@C88TexAce

Can you elaborate your opinion why you think its not? I’m really curious. You really break it down and would like to hear your side of that idea.

In general, you have to be very careful giving the defender the advantage after the offense tries to do something (ie, make a tool unsafe). Only really, really good tools are generally unsafe, such as invincible moves or unreactable mixups/footsies moves. The offense actually has to risk quite a bit to go for a throw already; they are exposing themselves to mash jab, reversals and neutral jumping to attempt it. If you add “successful throw tech” to the list of punishments, throws become greatly devalued.

Basically, if you’re on defense, it’s because you made a mistake in the neutral. You didn’t anti-air, you got out-footsied, or you got knocked down. You need to “earn” your way out of the mixup by taking damage or playing defense. Simply teching a throw isn’t enough for you to earn your frame advantage back.

[TexAceFGC]

That’s sounds fair enough. I understand it now a lot more why that can be bad and generally make throws “useless” so to say.

You personally, do you have anything you would like to see added/changed to KI? Maybe a new mechanic or even take away a current one? How about tweaking a current one?