How would you rebalance S1 & S2 characters before season 3?

General Discussion
61

I’m not so sure throws would be “useless”, but they’d definitely suck a lot more. You would also have to really visually indicate who teched and who tried to throw, because it’s definitely not always obvious, and you don’t want a “random” person to be at frame disadvantage and not know it.

I have my thoughts on the various characters, yeah. A lot of the stuff I want is selfish, so I tend not to share it that much (“nerf this move because I think it’s dumb”), although I do have various ideas that I think are good. Most of the stuff I want changed about KI are things surrounding the fighting engine, actually… I want them to rework how colors are assigned to be more flexible (and I want them to release more colors), I want more training mode tools, I want the cursor to move more smoothly on character select and I want them to redo stage select so I don’t have to scroll in a long line to get to Shadow Jago Lair. Some of these ideas might already be in the works for Season 3, I have no idea.

2 Likes
62

Definitley the sound and speed of the auto doubles ,making them feel swifter like Jago,Thunder,Spinal’s auto double animations are really good while a lot of people complained about S2 ,not all characters but some sounds and animtions that make some S2 fighters feel slower and look clunkier,i think its a combo of sound ,animation and emphasis pertaining to point of impact on each hit of the auto doubles of certain S2 fighters . Maya’s tumble kicks are a good example of slower openers and auto doubles while they look great compare them to like Jagao’s laser Sword animations,listen to the difference in sound and the difference in speed and lets try to improve S2 fighters who’s moves are as clunky as Maya’s tumble kicks,i wont even go near aganos, he needs physical theraphy to be in this cast,lol just kidding,maybe,lol

63

Wouldn’t say a mistake was made but someone certainly earned an advantage.

To add at the point of Tech, there’s also Counter Breaking in mid-combo, resetting the KV and rewarding a good counter-read or punishing a random attempt where a jab would’ve done the same to attempt to read a reset.

If a Tech is made, from Block String or in Combo, the defense has reset the interaction and now it’s literally back to the 2-way interaction Neutral into Combo. It’s 2-way interaction on a near impossible to distinguish between read and guess situation, followed by a 2-way neutral attempt to restart a combo.

It’s a catalyst to a complex Yomi situation.

64

Well, my definition of “mistake” is very loose here. You were in a good situation (not on defense) a few seconds ago, and now you’re in a bad situation (on defense)… so, something happened that you probably could have avoided to make this true. Sometimes it’s a really bad mistake, but other times it’s just a series of small things (and not all these things may even be reliably preventable every time). But good players will find ways to be on defense less often.

I guess my point was, if a person is in a position to attempt a throw, they probably earned it (or you allowed it to happen) and throwing in KI is enough of a risk that teching should not be yet another way for the defense to fully escape his dilemma.

65

Yeah, throws are nearly as punishable as DPs or so on whiff (backdash/jump out) so I don’t really think that you should get a full-on free combo out of just a tech. I think the reset to true neutral standing is perfect

66

No prob :smile:

Mine was to ensure the thought that a person making a good guess isn’t the same as the opponent making a mistake.
A mistake is more about choosing the wrong move in a given situation. 50-50 mix-ups are more about luck on both sides.
… A mistake could be classified as committing to a 50-50 instead of recognising the need for defense at that moment, to which a block string may occur and we’re now in an example situation.

Do agree. If I wasn’t clear on that.

1 Like
67

@Infilament
I agree that there is a lot to be done as far as different mechanics and especially training mode go. I’ve found/thought up a couple of things that I’ve really liked, some major, some little.
-Dojo for all characters (eventually)
-Enhanced tutorials for manual timing
-All characters available in training mode for FTP players to try out before they buy
-Training videos (I’ve seen these in a lot of games, including but not limited to Brink, Evolve, Sunset Overdrive, and many others. Figured they could be done with help from major contributors like you and Maximilian for maximum effect.
-Matchup/Meta tips that flash up in menus/loading screens
-KI2 Music/Backgrounds

I will also shamelessly agree that, despite me playing across the cast, I do have my biases. Would be interested to hear yours, though, since generally you’re really objective in your posts/guide. :slight_smile:

68

Yeah Omen was rushed and needs work,i feel his lack of luster and trope from chun li (SF) diminishes the games appeal when they rushed him out

69

I hate nerfing characters so I’m just going to list buffs that I think would be good to see.

Jago: leave alone he’s as balanced as balanced gets
Sabre: also in a good spot
Sadira: Heavy Bite recapture
Orchid: Give her another grenade option that instead applies a debuff instead of frame advantage.
Thunder: Less frames for call of sky buff as to afford more frequent use
Spinal: good spot
Fulgore: Fix his HP laser, give him a little of his damage back (5% of the 10% that was nerfed).
Glacius: pretty good spot, careful on buffs. Maybe quicker armor regen in instinct

TJ: Good Spot
Maya: Make her 1 pip dagger abilities more useful give them more hit stun, damage or something. Right now I only ever see full pip dagger damage ender or homing unblockable.
Riptor: I know he has some big holes in his pressure maybe adjust those with some frame buffs
Kan-Ra: Good Spot
Aganos: He needs a better anti-air punish
Omen: Give him a shadow ender that’s a real damage ender instead of a battery ender, and give longer meter lockouts
Cinder: Good Spot
Hisako: Good Spot

So yeah, pretty solid roster no need for any major buffs. I’d mostly like to see some mechanics get more frequent use in some characters arsenal. 1 pip daggers, shadow dmg enders on omen, orchid grenades, thunder call of sky, etc.

70

Make all recaptures breakable for the ones that do have one.

Its a game mechanic and there’s supposed to be 2 way interaction with the mechanic. Can’t have 2 way interaction with unbreakable recaptures.

1 Like
71

Are there unbreakable recaptures right now? I haven’t noticed them if there are. I’ve been able to break/be broken on most things I/my opponent try.

72

Orchid’s air THROW is one and Kan Ra’ s ant lion is unbreable as well.

If we can now combo break/counter break in the air, we should be able to tech her throw too. Its a throw not a command grab.

Kan Ra’s ant lion is a projectile that loses to nothing. It beats out other projectiles as well except shadow ones.

73

Oooh… Well, I figure that since Orchid’s throw is only a recapture when used raw as an opener, it’s not as big of an issue… Though i agree that, since it uses the throw input, if you can anticipate it, you should be able to tech it. It’s kinda high risk though, so it should still be worth something.
I was unaware, however, that Kan-Ra’s ant lion was a projectile. I wholly agree that it should be reclassified as a physical attack like Glacius’s ice lance or shatter, since it’s used as a recapture and brings them in for a combo seemingly for free.
I learned something today. Thanks, m8 :slight_smile:

74

Yea I really was just talking about Kan Ra’s in general when I first posted about all of them being breakable.

When you asked about the unbreakables, thats when Orchid’s came to mind as well but that wasn’t my main concern either. She has limits to hers but they can change that too if they were to make all recaptures breakable in the future.

75

The important part about Kan-Ra’s antlion is that it is also an opener, so he can’t use it for 1-chance breaks or immediate enders like TJ and Cinder can.

So in reality, I don’t think it’s a big deal. In fact, I think he should keep it unbreakable.

76

I can agree with that, unless there is a situation where it can be used mid combo (which there might be, but I wouldn’t know)

77

But on the Cinder note, he can’t go straight into an Ultra from his recapture like Kan Ra can.

Kan Ra can recapture into light auto double into ender. As we discussed in the older forums, lights auto doubles aren’t reactable frame wise. So he essentially gets the same damage as TJ or Cinder if they were to use their recapture as the point for a one chance break.

78

There are situations where it can be used mid-combo, but he still has to give you a break point in order to cash out. It won’t be the antlion but it’ll be something else.

It’s stronger than traditional recaptures but not really by that much in my opinion. I don’t think it’s so strong that it needs nerfing, especially since Kan-Ra’s game is really, really hampered if he has to survive a 50/50 choke point break (with the massive air whiff counter breaker animation) to get any meaningful damage off his command throw.

(Yes he can do the spike into shadow scarab thing but he really does need antlion)

Yeah but Cinder can cash out without using his recapture at all, which I think is very important. So can TJ, actually, but it’s not as important for him.

And yes, Kan-Ra can choose to do an unreactable guess for his one chance, whereas you can react to the strength of TJ’s tremor and obviously you can react to Cinder’s d+HK easily… which is why it’s very important that Cinder can cash out without needing to recapture.

79

There are. As you’re jumping back to get your distance place a scarab in the air. Do this twice. Now you’re full screen with two scarabs in the air. Light sand spike to pop your opponent into the first scarb. Light sand spike them into the second scarab in the air and your sand trap from the sand spike will allow you to recapture with antlion which you can go into an ultra as well. Thats all unbreakable too by the way.

80

Sabrewulf: Reduce his damage output. He already has great mixups and footsies to open you up. Then when he’s in combo, he gets lockouts fairly easily because of his animations looking similar, along with his 2-hit heavy linkers and 1-hit medium linker. Then during a lockout, he can fit about 4-5 (I’m guessing here) heavy autodoubles and a very fast Shadow Leaping Slash before a damage ender. After getting one opening (which he is really really good at, especially in Instinct), he has a pretty easy path to ~60% damage.

Glacius: An Instinct that gives a buff with involuntary timing feels very outdated compared to other Instincts. It could be re-worked to where he gets another small buff (mobility? dashes?) and gets armor back when he presses HP+HK after a cooldown.

Fulgore: There’s always talk of bringing back his old heavy laser, but do you guys think about the Aganos matchup when you say that? He used to be able to instantly hit a standing Aganos from full-screen. As for balancing, you could make all of his DPs just one hit like Jago’s. Not very unbiased here, but I’m just saying… it only significantly affects one matchup that he still wins even without multi-hit DPs.

Maya: For Mantis, reduce the damage and/or give it some more recovery. I think it’s not nearly as punishable as it should be, considering it does Tiger Fury levels of damage. Also, how about we add a recovery frame or two to her dagger throws. You have to be psychic to punish them with a projectile invulnerable move. To compensate, improve her Shadow Counter so it actually does what it’s supposed to do.

Riptor: Give her a reason to do her combo trait, because I don’t think she has one.

Kan-Ra: End the curse from his throw and scorpion tails when he is hit. Having the entire duration guaranteed is a bit overkill for a zoner with such good mobility. I also think his recapture should be breakable in some way, but at the same time it’s very predictable (unlike Cinder’s), so it might be too much of a nerf.

Omen: I think an actual damage ender (Shadow Move) could work, but that would probably also require nerfing his other enders in some way.

Aganos: Make the Peacemaker worth obtaining in neutral - at the very least give it priority over special moves. Allow for safer chunking up by decreasing the startup time and/or increasing the time on his hard knockdowns. Re-work his Instinct like I suggested for Glacius. I wouldn’t be surprised if his resource system is changed like Fulgore’s was at the beginning of Season 2.