Gargos is annoying to fight

#223

It’s highly unlikely Gargos will be banned for this bug. It’s mildly annoying for most of the cast, but doesn’t really go beyond that. You’re somewhat uniquely disadvantaged Geek for playing Aganos, who’s wide enough and slow enough that it actually matters a little.

But I find it highly unlikely that you’ll even encounter the bug in tournament play. Even with the bug I’m pretty sure Gargos isn’t Aganos’ worst MU, so if someone wants to counterpick you it probably won’t be with a month old character.

And if you do happen to run into him, just knock him down once and go to town. Gargos’ defense is balls. :thumbsup:

#224

No, that’s BROKEN gaming. There’s a difference between using a game mechanic that’s meant to be there and 1 that’s not. This falls into the latter of the 2.

And yes, while there have been bugs, exploits, or balance issues that have become a thing, that doesn’t necessarily make it right, or fair. Halo is a good example - everything from a super-pistol, to BXR, to teabagging has become a thing - and IMO, none of those things contributed to a better gaming environment or community. In fact, I would argue the opposite. It’s made the community as a whole worse, and all because the devs allowed for it to happen.

As far as banning goes, I just want the character banned for tournaments until a bug is fixed. Isn’t that what happened with Glacius and Kan-Ra? Why not do it to Gargos too?

#225

The Kan Ra and Glacius bugs earlier this season were far bigger problems than the hitbox issue. As I said, I thought it was only an issue with the LP version, and have only come across a few Gargos online, anyway.

Even in Early Access, this was not something I noticed or heard about from the other people who had access and are bigger lab guys. You may be getting frustrated by it, but it’s an issue of annoyance, rather than a game breaker. You’re not put into an unblockable or unavoidable situation.

#226

While you’re correct that it’s harder to deal with for Aganos, it doesn’t matter a little - it matters a lot. As for tournament play, when I drive 3 hours out of my way after spending $70+ to participate in a tournament only to lose to this bug when I otherwise should’ve won, rest assured, I’ll be back and you will hear about it.

Besides, what makes you think I’ll be able to knock him down or even remotely get near him if he’s full-screen away from me, keeping me in check with a broken portal punch?

#227

I think Aganos beats Gargos.

3 Likes
#228

lol the broken portal punch doesn’t help him keep you in check in the neutral. Just block on wake up to avoid the meaty (which is what’s broken about it), and then do your normal game to get in. Nothing’s gonna change about the neutral aspect of it once the bug is fixed, it’ll still be just as bad an annoyance as it is now.

What I mean is, the active frames only matter when it’s used in a meaty situation or if you try to backdash it (which I don’t believe you’ll be doing, if you wanna reduce distance to your target, not with Aganos’ backdash)., otherwise, as soon as it connects (block or hit) it no longer matters.

This is far from ban worthy, IMO. I think the unscaled damage on the shadow command grab and the torpedo > air torpedo > extra action (which, afaik and judging from the release stream where it was stressed quite a bit that you could only get one aerial action after a blocked torpedo, shouldn’t be possible) are much worse bugs. Still don’t think either is game breaking enough to warrant an actual ban, because truthfully none of them make Gargos broken or OP, IMO.

The kan ra and glacius bugs were pretty game breaking. Nothing at all like these bugs…

#229

Competitive gaming is what it is. It isn’t what you want it to be. Those types of self imposed restrictions or house-rules are part of the scrub mentality. There was a time when people, lots of them, said throws were unfair and tried to ban them from arcade SF2 play.

I highly suggest you read Sirlin’s Playing to Win book, and probably Patrick Miller’s fighting game’s guide, to get your head in a better place for the rigors and abuse of competitive gameplay.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/

Edit - in the FGC, we have a long standing history of only attempting to ban things that are: a.) absolutely game breaking (ie stop the game from being played) and b.) can be easily detected.

1 Like
#230

This is what I CAN’T do. Storm already knows why.

I think so too, but only under the right circumstances. Against a Gargos who does nothing but use the broken portal punch to keep me at bay when I have no chunks is NOT the right circumstance, and to be honest makes for a rather boring fight. If I block, I get nowhere; if I jump, I get hit; if I dash, I definitely get hit; if I roll, I mostly get hit, if I ruin, I get hit, if I use shadow natural disaster (with hold) or shadow ruin), I can get out, but then I’m wasting a resource when I otherwise shouldn’t have to. Of all of these options, I’m certain that if the bug were fixed, I’d be able to use all of the above to get out except for the dash. So, as I said, it limits options, and while I wait for those options to appear (meter, that is), I’m being poked, chipped out, and opened up.

For this matchup to be in Aganos’ favor, I have to be aggressive and in his face from the start (much like with Kan-Ra), which would be fine, but there’s nothing stopping him from creating an opening once I use up all of my chunks (for whatever reason) or once he removes them and zoning me out anyways. Even if I keep the chunks for armor, that still limits my own options (no walls, projectiles, etc.) There is very little room for error here.

#231

Explain to me how fixing the bug will make it so you can jump or roll or ruin out of the portal punch, please. I’m definitely curious.

Btw, I just saw a set between a pretty good Gargos (Deathmonkey) and Aganos (Cupcake) you might want to check out. Portal punch bug wasn’t an issue.

Here you go:

3 Likes
#232

Nothing except normals, specials, already placed walls, grabs…

Nobody’s going to stand still, do nothing and let you punch them in the face.

2 Likes
#233

uhh, what?

When you discuss matchups, either a character beats another or it doesnt, or its even. Its all theory talk, which I know has been explained before to you.

2 Likes
#234

Which is what I’ve never liked. There are far too many “conditions” to consider for it to be anything else. For example, I know that you can jump out of a LP portal punch (timing, naturally, is key), but not the other 2. A smart Gargos player (which is who I will invariably run into during tournaments) wouldn’t use that 1 very often against Aganos, because it’s the easiest 1 to avoid. They’d mix it up with the other 2 instead, because they’re far more effective at getting through or keeping the golem in place. Aganos can’t dash or jumnp out of HP portal punch, so that’s a good choice overall, but the MP portal punch tracks better against fast moving attacks, such as with the natural disaster, and can keep Aganos at a comfortable distance.

While the video above is good, it showcases a great Aganos player and a Gargos player who fights fair and who rarely uses the cheap tactics that I’m referring to. In a tournmanet, said Gargos player may not be so nice, if they really want to win, especially if they have said bug to aid them in that endeavor…

#235

You didn’t refer any cheap tactics, though. You just made a long paragraph explaining how the different portal punches are used to zone out Aganos.

Nothing to do with the bug. No cheap tactics, just zoning a character out.

You’ve yet to explain how correcting the active frames bug changes any of this. Natural disaster has no inincibility frames, afaik, so if you’re getting hit out of it by a portal punch that tracked you, you’ll still get hit by the same portal punch when the bug is fixed. Unless I’m missing something, this has nothing to do with active frames.

2 Likes
#236

It has a lot to do with timing. For example, I can jump out of certain portal punches, but the window to do so is greatly diminished because of the bug, and I can still get hit by it when I otherwise shouldn’t of. It becomes a far more effective zoning tool then it should be, ESPECIALLY against Aganos.

#237

The bug doesn’t affect startup or hitbox or recovery. It only affects active frames. To jump out of the portal punch, you’d have to jump during its startup (meaning, before the active frames actually kick in), or after blocking it, during its recovery. None of these two situations will change.

Unless you mean jumping out of the portal punch on your startup. This is the sole case in which the active frames linger and so he can perform the punch much earlier and have huge frame advantage.

But again, that’s when it’s used as an oki tool, not during neutral game.

1 Like
#238

You are, as ever, absolutely free to return to the forums to howl in indignant rage over whatever situation you choose. It is how many, many posters deign to spend their free time here.

Unless you’re predicting getting perfected by a month-old zoning Gargos, you’ll probably land a hit at some point. In the meantime, there’s blocking, shadow roll (not held, just fly straight through and hit him when he portal punches), shadow ruin, walking forward and blocking, and payload assault smartly applied.

Or do none of those things, and complain on the forums when it’s all over. Your call :thumbsup:

3 Likes
#239

If I jump (as Aganos) during the startup, I get hit by the active frames regardless of the bug being there or not, so long as its a m.PP or h.PP, because the active frames will hit me during my pre-jump frames or otherwise still reach my hurtbox. If I jump during the active frames, then I (obviously) get hit. If I try and block it and then jump, I get hit by the bug anways due to the bug. If I just hold the block until the hitbox disappears entirely, and then try and jump then I’m basically back at square 1 with scenarios 1 or 2 if I still want to try and jump.[quote=“STORM179, post:238, topic:10812”]
walking forward and blocking
[/quote]

I’m not fast enough to do this. I find that if I walk forward, I can’t get to the block fast enough to counter whatever I might see coming. I know this, because I’ve tried to walk forward in an attempt to intimidate my opponent. Against good players (which would be what I would encounter during a tournament, and whom have likely perfected their month-old zoning Gargos by then), this won’t work.

#240

Yeah, sorry but you’re wrong. There are no active frames after you block. Hit the lab or check back on that. As soon as the move connects, its active frames disappear. They only linger on a whiff. As I said earlier, nothing about a blocked portal punch on neutral will change once the bug is gone. It’s impossible to block it and then try and do something, and get hit by it.

The way I deal with portal punch is block > dash/walk in, rinse and repeat if they feel like trying to zone me. You shouldn’t walk until you see the startup, you just patiently walk little by little, stopping to see if they commit to the portal punch or not. Reacting to the startup may be tough, just walk an inch or two, hold down back for an instant, if they don’t punch, walk again, etc.

#241

Then where’s all this talk about the bug locking people down coming from that I’m hearing about? I’ll go into the lab to check on this myself. If that is indeed the case, then it’s no wonder you guys aren’t so worried about it. With it being that way, then it just becomes a matter of what a character can do when it initially whiffs and how it may juggle, and or knock down the opponent for follow-up purposes.

#242

Go ahead, check all you like, and you probably should 'cause you’re being misled by wrong info, or simply misinterpreting correct info.

It locks you down on wake up, because gargos can just throw a portal punch really early forcing you to block it, and then dash in your face while you’re still in blockstun, or he can simply throw another portal punch that you can’t run away from.

That’s an oki setup. Has nothing to do with neutral use of the move.