Fighting Game Complainers

I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with having issues with a game and voicing those issues. My problem comes more from the volume and toxicity surrounding the way in which some of these people voice their issues (as you said).

Can they present their stream in any way they want? Of course. But I do tend to wonder how much of it is ranting as entertainment, which I find to be both uninformative and destructive to the very ecosystem they’re trying pontificate within. It ceases being valued, informative critique and it becomes noise.

If you actually enjoy the game and you want it to succeed, one would hope that you’d take an informed approach with positivity and constructive criticism, maybe even brainstorm solutions, not because you think that you can make a better, more balanced game, but because it helps give a better overall picture of the problem and why the solution makes sense / would improve the game.

Yet we live in such a hot take, knee-jerk culture right now where nuance is less entertaining than taking a few issues, blowing them out of proportion and arriving at a conclusion (ie KI is not fun anymore) that seems hardly congruous with the actual argument presented once all the hyperbole, pontificating, straw-manning, etc are stripped away.

It’d be wonderful if some of these people had the self-awareness to realize that something’s simply not for them anymore and that while complaining might help, it won’t help to such an extent as to make the experience what it once was for them and that it’s okay to move on to something else.

Of course, people have been complaining about this game since season one. It’s not like the old games. It’s too bright. It doesn’t capture the “KI aesthetic.” Whatever the hell that means. Season two’s not nearly as good as season one. It’s too complicated. I hate my character now after the rebalance and so on and so on.

Sometimes, opinions change, I get that. So feedback can obviously be useful to the devs. But when you spend so much of your time, day after day, stream after stream, doing nothing but ripping on the game and the developers? At that point, you have to ask what you’re even doing and why.

I don’t understand people that want to present such negativity to others, and to do it on a consistent basis no less. I almost wonder if it’s a cathartic experience, like a “nothing helps a bad day like sharing it with others” type of deal.

Maybe they just do it for the subs? In that case, I definitely don’t understand the people that would want to continually tune in for that, unless you really hate something too and you want to see someone tear it apart. Even then though… I don’t see how someone could keep tuning in for that.

Who knows, maybe it’s like Yelp reviews. Most people only leave them when they have a really good experience or a really bad experience. So either many of these streamers love the game and want to share it with the world, or they despise what it’s become and they have to eviscerate it and scream at the developers as loudly as their stream follower count / influence will allow.

Either way, I think it’s a rather garbage aspect of our culture right now and it turns me away from a stream, no question. I’d rather watch someone play a game I have no interest in, who loves it and shares that positivity (along with information, compelling gameplay and critique) or even someone that sucks at a game, but who’s having fun learning it, than watch someone rage through a game that I love and trash it nonstop, and for me, that choice isn’t even close.

I dunno, maybe that’s my own issue. I simply can’t relate to people that enjoy hate watching something or want to play a game just to trash it. Life’s short enough as it is. You really want to spend minutes or even hours doing something that makes you angry? What, so you can make others angry too?

I agree that the game has issues and I’d never want to hush people that are voicing those opinions. Would you agree that there’s a bit of a difference though between critiquing while you play and simply ranting for the entertainment of others?

If you love a game and you want to share it with others, would you agree that there’s a difference between frustrated but constructive criticism and destructive criticism that trashes the game, trashes the developers, etc?

I don’t think it’s a matter of saying that these people need to shut up. But I’d personally watch their streams more if they altered their tone to come off more like they want to share and inform, even when their opinion doesn’t align with the developers and less like they hate the game and could develop it better than the idiots making it. But that’s just me.

I do think that there’s a level of toxicity around some of the streamers and I also think that has an effect on others. Now, how many others and how influential any of these people really are is CERTAINLY open for debate.

But while opinions are something everyone’s entitled to, a cluster of constant negativity can, I’d argue, contribute to a culture of increasing toxicity, and that can spread throughout a fanbase, or at least give that fanbase a reputation (COD anyone?).

I’ve read that the KI Facebook group is an utter pit of toxicity. I’ve also seen enough comments sections in MS streams and enough actual streamers themselves bash this game in to oblivion to feel a compulsion toward minimizing those kinds of interactions with the game and the community.

When I have to put on that many blinders to keep myself insulated from so much negativity, I think it’s at least worth asking some questions, like where is it all coming from and why? How much do these places reflect a kind of general sentiment? How much of an effect is this having on both the community as a whole and outsiders perception of the community? Is this a problem that should be fixed? Can it be fixed? If so, how?

I don’t think that calling people crybabies or telling them that their opinion doesn’t matter is a solution (sorry, OP :slight_smile:) But I understand the desire to give it back to some of these people.

For my part, I just wish that we could all enjoy this game while maintaining a critical eye, voicing our concerns/opinions and giving feedback, yet still having a fun and positive environment, not as a group of obedient sheep, but as a community of people that are doing something that they enjoy and sharing that enjoyment.

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I just read through this thread finally (except for your wall of text @Iago407, sorry :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:) and I got some things to say.

First off, shoutouts to this line

for restoring my hope in this game’s future again. Yes, I’m serious.

My own personal take on this is that you can go ahead and say your negative opinion if you want. If you don’t want to debate with me, then fine. But being an a**hole is not an alternative to debate. This is a personal thing to me, but if I say something in a chat that you find so strange and disagreeable, how about you not try and make me feel like an idiot for expressing it by using my line as a joke or something? “Being toxic” is a actually being used as a joke (yes, I’m serious) by a few personalities right now because they’re making fun of the people that squeal at them for expressing a negative opinion. Problem is, they are being toxic because they are trying to impose negativity on others who just want to have fun watching the game. There’s a thin line between these behaviors that these streamers can’t seem to see. And I have been driven away from these streams because of it, and since KI streams are getting lesser and lesser, I’m running out of places where I can just appreciate the game as I watch matches or something.

I really want to stream myself, see if I can get a following and maybe give some of my own positivity. Problem is, at this point, I just don’t think I’d be good at doing that. Firstly, my Elgato capture card cannot seem to understand that I can use more bitrate than it’s allowing me to. Second, I tend to have salty reactions to a decent proportion of my matches and that would not help spread positivity. And third… I’m at the point where I’m starting to tire out of the game, only playing a few sets here and there. Could I actually look like I’m having fun anymore?

I just wish these guys would leave already. And I have hopes that Combo Breaker can get me excited again.

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LOL, can’t say I blame ya. :grinning:

I’ve also thought about streaming, but I have no idea where to even begin. I don’t even know if using Beam through the XB1 is a good idea or what. I’d also probably run in to your second issue!

I usually only watch streams if the streamer is positive. Otherwise, what’s the point? People like @INDIxion stream KI every now and then and there is so much positivity there. We need more positive streams!

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I’ve actually streamed on few occasions, but I wasn’t very engaging considering how new I was to broadcasting. Being positive is good, but so is being entertaining, something I don’t do all that well, haha.

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You meant to say fewer and fewer. Call me toxic, I dare you!

Burnout is a very real thing in any game but especially fighting games. There’s nothing wrong with feeling tired with a game and needing a solid few months away. I suspect many of our top players have had that feeling. I dunno how top level SF4/SF5 players do it (although I suspect the answer very clearly starts with “M” and ends with “oney”). I suspect that’s probably why so much of the FGC is looking forward to Marvel Infinite, so they can have a change of pace from the insanely intense focus on SFV.

The difference is, I don’t think our top players realize that they would have had this same feeling of burnout no matter what fighting game they were playing, even if it was their favorite iteration of KI, or their favorite non-KI fighting game. They instead interpreted the burnout as “KI sucks, I’m not having fun anymore” and proceeded to spend months (and in some cases years) planting poison at the very root of the KI tree. Then when KI dies, they’re like “see? I was right, the game sucks.”

But no, they just have to be held accountable for planting poison at the base of the tree. And maybe in a few years they’ll realize what they were doing (or maybe not), but it’ll probably be too late to save the tree at that point.

Again, I want to be very clear; I am less involved in the KI scene today exclusively because of the negative attitudes of many (but not all) of our top players and regular stream viewers. The game has had some missteps here and there, and some rather sad missed opportunities which I have been more than happy to take the KI decision makers to task over, but gameplay-wise it is still the same game I’ve liked since it launched, just with a slightly different (and many would say improved) flavor. When people with the same priorities as me (that is, enjoying following the tournament scene and/or talking about the highest level play) ask me “what happened to KI?” in a year, I know what I will be telling them.

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Looks like as a community, we have to help change this. I have optimism for the future!

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It’s changeable, yes, and the best part is, it’s actually not even very hard! You don’t even have to suddenly believe KI S3 is the best version of KI, if you don’t believe that in your heart.

People just have to literally stop being shitheads about everything, and smile every once in a while.

You know, I watched a lot of Grimmmz back when he streamed/Youtube’d KI. He would smile over cool interactions and generally look like he was having a blast, and I think that positivity had a huge impact in bringing me into the game. Sure the game was cool and fun and stuff, but it was his awesome energy that helped really drive the point home. Grimmmz has since moved on to be a variety streamer, but mostly focusing on a genre I don’t really care for (the battle royale games). But you know what? I still tune into Grimmmz’s stream decently regularly. He is not even playing a game I have interest in, but he smiles at the camera and doesn’t talk shi.t. It’s amazing how infectious that is, to the point where I will literally watch him do something I am not interested in just to see it.

I’ve also been watching most of Sajam’s streams, largely because he’s a bud but most importantly because he makes everything sound amazing and cool. He could be talking about the world’s most simple SFV interaction, like meatying with a normal, and he’d raise his voice and get out of his chair and give the stream the finger guns over it. Like fu.ck man, I don’t even care about that but sign me up.

Meanwhile, when some of our top players go to other games (whether it’s now, or 3 months from now, or 3 years from now), even if that game is something I have a lot of interest in and is the greatest game of all time, I don’t think I will be following them. Maybe they will learn this lesson the hard way when their stream numbers lag compared to their peers, or maybe they won’t. But I probably won’t be around to find out.

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Ixion is one of the worst players of KI that streams (still a Killer, still good, but compared to the others), yet he’s probably the only KI stream I bother watching even though I don’t really learn anything.
Similarly, Floe during one of the many SFV outages picked up KI for ■■■■■ and giggles and to see how the game was, and he approached it with his usual wide-eyed wonder and enthusiasm. I don’t think he knew what a counter breaker was, but it didn’t matter because he was having fun and so were we. His stream #s were as normal.
One last example, remember when Juicebox picked up KI for a month or two? No complaining, just deconstructing the game as he does and labbing the hell out of Tusk and his matchups. Very entertaining and he kept his audience.

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I’ve seen at least 2 top KI players drift to SFV because it’s better balanced. LOL WUT?

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What they’re actually saying is “I enjoy SFV’s balance more than KI’s balance”. Which is a perfectly fine, subjective statement that I wouldn’t challenge, even if I may not agree.

SFV probably has about 50% of their roster (11-12 characters out of 24) as viable tournament choices, which I think is more than legacy games, probably slightly less than SF4 had, and less than KI has. Maybe you really like all of these 12 characters though, so the game is fun and fresh to you. That’s cool. Other people might hate all the top tiers and their favorite SF character is languishing in obscurity. That is probably less fun for those people.

But either way you slice it, thinking SFV is more balanced and enjoying that game is a lot different than ■■■■■■■■ over other games, especially if you try to say it as objective fact but then can’t back it up with objective evidence. Just play what you subjectively like and don’t apologize for it. Smile while you do it.

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~ Infilament, 2017

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Yeah, but if you like SFV so much, why would you stream KI and talk ■■■■ about it instead?

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Because that would make them a hypocrite if they did. If Ir ead the message wrong by all means enlighten me on where I missed the bulls-eye?

Personally, There are indeed some problems with KI and while I don’t agree with some of the nerfs or buffs, I’m adaptable. I’ll just keep playing and adapting until there is enough feedback to rundo those.

Though, there is a problem that I’ve had with game sthat contain infinites, atl east KI balances all that out with combo breakers. If you want make an infinate combo you’ll earn ti through counter breakers. Thats basically the issue I especially had with MVC3 and then ther eis the spamming one combo or move with MKX.

I miss being able to stream this game, if anyone can direct me to a cheap stream setup that isn’t obs I would gladly run a fun stream because I love the heck out of this game! I even wanted to start a series where I do Rando Select ranked and see how far I can get. Will play casual matches, even do shadow lords completion.

I would like to get an actual capture card, that way I can respond to chat while playing.

I meant, why would you stream KI and talk ■■■■ about it, instead of streaming SFV

I have admittedly been disappointed throughout most of Season 3 and with the remixed characters we’ve had. And I’ve been rather ranting and negative about it… so much that people even made a meme out of my #nomoreguestcharacters, but I can laugh at that as well.

I still love KI though. I haven’t played it in a long time, but it is still one of my favourite franchises and I would love to see more KI in the future. Both Double Helix and Iron Galaxy have done an awesome job with it… for the most part. The parts I disliked that kinda ruined it for me is just… well, unfortunate! But I am glad that there are still people who love it and are still playing, and again, I hope to see more KI in the future.

I just personally think it would be cool to see a sequel with better graphics, more polished models, more costumes/accessories, more finishers for ALL characters, etc. But IG would need a better budget for that, and it would take time to start on a new game, so I understand why people here are clinging on to the current KI. But what I don’t like is that the “new” content we’re getting are just… lacking, for the lack of a better word. And from what I understand from the info we have about IG’s and KI’s current situation, it is a lack of funds. The budget is running out. And it seems like the next character will be the last piece of content we’ll get.

So… does that mean the end of KI? Or will we see more in the future? Will Microsoft support it? And will it be enough?

To me, it seems like the guest characters were a means to an end… to lure in new people to play KI and buy it, so IG would get more funds. And the remix characters is a result of them running low on them, but still having cool ideas for characters and tries to make it work with what they have. But that’s why I feel it feels lacking, compared to what we have already seen what they CAN do.

IG have been very resilient though, and kudos to them for all the work they’ve done! Even if there are people who think the game has changed more than they like, due to balancing patches, adding new stuff etc, I am happy to see how KI evolved from being a roster of 8 characters with only a few modes and extra content, to become the huge game it is today. I do not agree with all the content added, or the fact that not all characters could get the same treatment (like with some characters not getting Ultimates), and that’s a shame… because KI is otherwise a good game, imo!

When there’s a sequel… IF there will be a sequel… I hope it gets the treatment it deserves. Because if someone can make it great, it’s definitely Iron Galaxy.

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One thing that keeps me from coming back to playing KI is the staggers and flip-outs. It’s easy to say how to fight back or whatever but honestly I had more fun with KI during season 1 and the first half of season 2.

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If you prefer a much more grounded approach, you might like SF, nothing wrong with trying out other games too as a means to break away from the KI norm.