If people can’t do the move, they don’t do it. If they want to do the move, they learn the move. “Some people can’t do combos” we should make
combos easier. “Some people can’t do quarter circles.” One button! See how that doesn’t make sense. If you can’t do a dp, that’s on you. How does factoring in the people who can’t do it change the points he made?
If people can’t do the move, they don’t do it. If they want to do the move, they learn the move. “Some people can’t do combos” we should make
There are some motions in fighting games that are needlessly complex for the value they bring (for example, pretzel motions for Geese’s super are archaic and only for nostalgia, and I think you can make a good argument that half circles should just always be quarter circles), but I’m not sure I’d argue the DP motion as one of those. It’s tough for beginners to do, but in many cases it serves a real gameplay purpose. They are difficult to do on reaction and require dividing your mental energy away from important aspects of the fight in order to gain access to its power; these are both important things and you can show skill to overcome them. Meanwhile, the difficulty is not artificial and not SO hard that people can’t learn it with a little bit of effort.
You can make a game without DP motions, but I’m not sure we need to design the DP motion out of our fighting games.
Far from mastered but if you jump at me there’s a good chance you’re going to catch a Cyber Uppercut to the face lol. I can’t get the DP to come out every time and that’s really the point.
His point in “Reason’s Fighting Games are better than Fighting Sports” is that anyone can learn a DP; there are blind people who play SFIV with better execution than me. Not everyone is physically competent enough to pull off an arm bar or a toe hold.
I had similar issues in NR fighting games with their command grabs; practice, practice, practice until it’s second nature. Having skill gaps like these make it all the more rewarding when you do figure it out.
Sure… why Not… Combos are not competive anyways.
What are you talking about ?
It makes perfect sense. A competitive game where you fight the controls more than you can fight the opponent… THAT doesn’t make sense. We have Single Player Games for that sort of thing… which is funny because thats something even Single player games want to avoid.
We’re not talking about a handful of people here… we’re talking about a significant majority of the people who show even a mild passing in Interest in Fighting Games… if you want to act like thats not a significant design problem then fine… nothing I can do about that. If its easier for you to be indenial and just assume anybody who can’t pull off a DP fast enough is just being lazy then fine… nothin I can do about that either. I can’t do anything if people just ignore the issue.
I don’t want to live in the timeline where Jago can DP as easily as Cinder. shudder
DP motions aren’t actually that much more complex than quarter circles, either. The former is really just tilt forward before you do the latter. The game isn’t that strict about it.
IF you figure it out. I wouldn’t be whining about it if it was guaranteed to happen eventually. And that Command Grab in NRS games is awful… for whatever reason I could only do it with Lobo… with Shazam it never came out at all and with Harley Quin I kept getting her Shooting Special Move… That motion really sticks out because everything else is relatively easy and simple to do… had it been in Street Fighter it would be typical but in Injustice it sticks out like a Sore Thumb.
The point is that some times it comes out and sometimes it doesn’t… I’m pretty sure Random Elenents are toxic to competitive games… a considerable amount of time and effort and thought is put into these types of games to ensure that you don’t win or lose to some random bull ■■■■… so I sincerely doubt the whole point of the DP is to make it unpredictable or unreliable… Theres a similar problem with the Height Restriction Cammy’s Dive Kick and Chun Li’s air lightning legs in Street Fighter V. The move is so difficult to pull off consistently (on the way up) that neither player knows whos at an advantage when the Kick gets blocked…which means neither player can craft a strategy around the move… now maybe its just me but I don’t find it particularly entertaining to watch and I find it even less amusing to play.
Also if the developers wanted something to be random then they would just go ahead and make it Random, Faust, Peacock & Eyedol being an example since atleast their randomness remains consistent… regardless of player execution. Attempting to making something random by making it harder to do doesn’t make it equally random for everyone… infact for some players it won’t be random at all (I reckon this is a very small group)… they always get the DP while players with slower thumbs never get the DP.
Thats the fastest way to accidentally getting DPs when trying to do Fireballs.
Don’t get me wrong… the whole just walk forward and do a fireball trick is an effecting teaching tool to help players who can’t wrap their heads around the move… but it learning to do DPs that way comes back to bite you in the rear end way later down the line when its time to do it Faster or use it in specific Combos…
But it is. The only reason you wouldn’t eventually get it is if you give up.
These moves are pretty easy to pull off using something called a “tiger knee” input, which is really no harder than a regular quarter circle. You may not know about the technique but I’d call these moves very reliable.
Also, I think your definition of “random” is a bit off. Random means the same input will produce different outputs because the game injects factors outside the player’s control. Doing a DP successfully is not random; it is deterministic and always happens the same way based on your inputs. It’s possible your inputs are unreliable, but that’s quite different from random – unreliable inputs can be improved with practice, whereas truly random factors (like Faust’s items) cannot be.
Ok…to me there are pivotal learning points you have to learn in a fighting game to be successful and those are (in a general sense) game sense, creativity, reactivity, and execution.
Let’s focus on the execution part of these things. Execution limits everyone’s capabilities on performing certain moves at certain times. But the thing is with this is that to overcome these challenges brought up by execution, all that it takes is time and practice. No one learned how to DP in one day consistently. TBH performing a DP is not the most challenging task to do in regards of execution. I can see that you are referring to moments in which you need a quick DP. Basically, the DP movement is a way to limit to use of an extremely powerful move.
Execution is what can differ casual players to higher players. Take death combos in MvC, if they’re made simpler to do, everyone and their mother would be doing it consistently and that would completely ruin a part of the game. The hype of performing such a execution heavy combo. That is why it is essential for higher players to learn them and never drop it in the heat of battle.
Basically, you take away the execution part of it and you’ll just limit the skill gap by much and I personally don’t want that in a fighting game.
Also, it just isn’t practical to assign it to one button that can used for actual normal moves,
Lastly, random means that the outcome of a move (in this case a DP) can never be altered by the user. Performing a DP is not random, as players who practice the game enough can almost never accidentally input another move with a DP and vice versa.
I thought I was just too slow at one point too; I even bought a $200 fight stick because I was CERTAIN that was my problem. I eventually gave up on the fight stick because I have short as heck pinkies but the point is that it wasn’t my problem; the DP input wasn’t second nature yet. The time I spent deciding that the DP was the right move and executing it took too long. I was well into Killer before I learned to use bare DP’s as AA’s and many other Killers are the same. KI is extremely lenient for the input too; I get it to come out by doing consecutive down-forward diagonal inputs followed by a punch.
It’s much less about the move being random and more about it being more difficult. It’s a far cry from 1-frame links but essentially the same concept albeit much milder. Pro players aren’t born with the innate ability to do DP inputs; it’s something they worked at and continue to work at.
LoL… and Cereal lasts forever as long as you keep adding milk. As adorable as it is to “Never Give Up” its also just as naive to expecting people to continue to practice something when they’ve reached their limit.
My DPs are as fast and as consistent as they’re ever going to be… if I didn’t “Give Up” then I would still be in training mode to this day, practicing DPs and seeing no improvements… stuck in this execution limbo with no hoping of experience anything else the game has to offer.
Just so we’re clear I haven’t actually given up… I still sort of practice my DPs for my characters that have them… they’re not getting any better but I still try to do them. Failing miserably in the process.
We’re talking about when a player is intentionally trying to input DPs, though. Not mistakenly doing it while zoning or shimmying.
Have you tried ️ ️ It also produces the dp.
I play Hisako… trust me I’m fully aware of The Tiger Knee Motion… but remember… Street Fighter V had a gigantic Height Restriction on those two moves specifically… almost as if its whole reason for existing is just to make the Input Buffer Expire, preventing the viability of the Tiger Knee Trick… now for Cammy’s EX Cannon Strike the Tiger Knee Trick could still work because the Height Restriction on the EX Version is alil bit lower… but for her Normal Cannon Strike its definitely more reliable to just do the sequence in the correct order as blazingly fast as your thumbs will allow you to…
I’ve heard the Tiger Knee Trick still works for her normal Cannon Strike but it Pretty much requires a Very Tight Frame Perfect Delay of both the Motion and the button to get it to come out at all.
But thats not even the Surprising part… the surprising it part is the Height Restriction remains even when trying to Cannon Strike on the way down from your Jump… makes no Sense to me… At the point The Cannon Strike Relatively weaker compared to her jumping Normals… after all its not an over head and at that point in the Jump she has completed most of her jump arch so shes not going to land in Different Spot… I also don’t think it does as much Block Stun as her Heavy Normals because the Cannon Strike has its own unique landing Animation… atleast I think it does… After it connects she doesn’t remain in the Cannon Strike pose like she does with her Jumping Normals… so whats with the Height Restriction on the way Down ?
LoL… I feel like they programmed it the simple way, no factoring Ascending or Descending As a Condition to the Height Restriction…
As for Chun Li’s Air Lightning Legs… I don’t know… I don’t play her nor have I studied this move… so I don’t know any of its properties.
A Distinction without a Difference. The end result is Random anyways But with the caveat that its not same random for everybody.
And Fast Fingers.
Let me level with you… I can’t remember a time when I’ve ever jumped into any game of any type and been good at executing most of the moves right out of the gate, be it Timing my Jumps in Rayman Legends or Performing the Death Coil Combo in DmC (P, P, Delay, P, P, P) but with time and Practice I eventually figured it out… after all its not physically demanding, its mostly just a knowledge thing and mental capabilities are way more Versatile than Physical Capabilities… The Dragon Punch motion (and every special move input in King Of Fighters) doesn’t coinside with this design.
Theres no trick to it… Its not complex… but doing the move at an ideal leisurely pace is useless, it needs to be done very very quickly for it to be of any use… and Time and Practice are not enough… trust me… I’ve sucked at doing DPs long enough to know what I’m talking about (LoL )… you also need god given Talent, Fast Fingers, In order to be able to get proper use out the Dragon Punch… nobody’s going to master it in a day but those with average fingers will never get the most out of it… forever left at a disadvantage they can do nothing about it… so they Quit… yes this a thing that happens… ALOT.
Has it ever occured to anyone that Casual Players aren’t Casual Players by Choice ? If this this is the sole deciding factor of what seperates the Casual Players from The Hardcore Players then there’s no hope for this genre. I’d be pretty upset if I was doomed to not experience any of the games depth because of Execution.
Broken Game is A Broken Game regardless of how many people are capable of breaking it, or regardless how many people are playing it at all… if one person can do it then thats it. Its over. Those who can’t are welcome to keep playing and stay invested but even if I couldn’t break the game myself I wouldn’t stay invested in a competitive game where even one person could.
That plus the lack of Singles in UMvC3 really bugged the crap out of me…I just wanted to use one dude.
Thats not how Skill Gaps Work… The Skill Gap is the space in between the Skill Ceiling and The Skill Floor… The Skill Ceiling is how much Skill is Required to master the Game and the Skill Floor is the minimum amount of Skill required to play the game.
So where does Execution lie in the Skill Gap ? In my opinion its lies at the Bottom… at the Skill Floor… after all Execution is the bottle neck of every fighting game… regardless of what other Skills or Expertise the game may require you aint gonna be doin nothin if you can’t get the moves to come out. And I think thats where the confusion about what effect lowering the execution barrier is going to have on the skill gap… if you think Execution lies on the Skill Ceiling then naturally making moves easier is going to come across as Dumbing the Game Down… but that makes no sense because Execution… as important as it is… isn’t the maximum amount of skill required to master the game… not by itself atleast. Being the Master of Execution isn’t going to lead to anything if you don’t know when, where and how to to apply the moves you’re are executing… which is where the real fun of Fighting Games are… I think thats whats at the top Of the Skill Gap.
Now if the if Skill Ceiling is Those things and the Skill Floor is the execution then lowering the skill floor actually widens the skill gap… leaving the skill ceiling untouched and the depth of the game intact. As it it is right now the Skill Floor is way too close to the Skill Ceiling… meaning the Skill Gap is very narrow.
That means you need to spend a considerable amount of time on the execution before you can even begin to actually play the game. Which is a terribal way to go about making any game of any type. Because Fighting Games can have skill floors so high up that players can’t clear them at all.
Just my observation…
It doesn’t just produce a DP… it produces a very fast DP… unfortunately I can only do it on the Player One side… The whole thing falls apart on the player two side.
LoL… Yeah and intentionally learning it that way is the cause of those Overlapping Errors… you never get a fireball when trying to do a DP but learning the proper input for a DP minimizes the likely hood of getting the wrong move when trying to do a Fireball.
Why does it need to be Difficult ?
Nobody’s born with the innate ability to do anything. But they are still many things that can only be done be certain people regardless of how long one Practises… think of it like singing… While having a lovely voice doesn’t mean you don’t have to practice to sing proplerly… Having a ■■■■■■ voice or no voice at all eliminates any and all possibility of singing and there isn’t any amount of Time and Practice thats going to change that. Now apply that to Fighting Games., except with one difference. You don’t even need to have crappy voice to suck… merely not being extraordinary is enough to prevent you from mastering the craft.
Just so we’re on the same understanding…
I just want to make clear that execution is not the only thing needed to be successful. You need what I mentioned above and probably more stuff. I only focused on execution in that post
But I still have a firm belief that if you want to capitalize on those other aspects you must first learn how to execute certain moves.
I’m no good at MvC because of the same reason, I’m not able to perform those moves but it is my fault for not fully investing some time into the game. I probably could if I actually spent lots of time on it