I find it funny how people call Rash broken, yet they’ve never seen what a good Rash actually looks like. That is the crazy version.
Honestly, man, I think you have to actually play the characters you hate and understand why the tools you’re struggling against aren’t nearly as good as you think. I am actually baffled that you complained about Kim’s counter, it’s one of the most ineffective moves she has.
Aren’t Rash and Kim on the lower end of the tier lists anyway?
I can’t remember if it’s true but Rash’s specials are (for the most part) negative.
Nah, Rash is pretty good in the right hands.
Well, really most specials in the game are technically negative on block, while light and medium normals tend to have some positive on block data. It’s just to what extent are they negative on block, and is there something the frame data isn’t telling us about the move in particular.
Rash’s big boot can be run-cancelled, and while it doesn’t make it positive on block, or even below punishable standards, it reduces the amount it’s negative. The frame data also suggests that wrecking ball is highly negative and punishable, but what the frame data doesn’t say is that it leaves him airborne, and it technically counts the frames from the end of the attack frames to what I think is when he touches ground again, and it doesn’t count the fact he can perform an air normal immediately after, so he’s not too unsafe, but he’s in a bad position if it’s blocked. Shadow big boot is negative on block and that’s because it’s an invincible reversal, which almost all of those are usually highly negative because of the very punishable nature of the move itself.
Tongue is slightly positive at some ranges and slightly negative at others. Used at close range, it can open for a combo. Ram is always negative, but light isn’t that punishable on block, while heavy is definitely.
I never will fully understand the ‘HELLO!!! I’m LEAVING!!!’ posts
Yeah same here, usually dont engage them because of it…
KI problems :
-Match ups
-Easy and no skill jumps
-Gimmicks or mix ups
-Easy combo and Combo Assist (imo hard and stylish combos or drops are an important part of fighting game)
-Too much safe BS or unreactable and hard to punish
-Dumb play can win fundamentals
Keep it simple like some other “fighting games” ? Why sometimes in KI some Match Ups make me feel i’m fighting a final boss from another game ?
I just played back yesterday after 6 months, i mainly play another fighting game. And i just can’t, Killer Instinct is no bueno and not really fun to play sometimes as a fighting game because the things i’ve listed.
Every time someone makes a plea for more simplicity in this game, I shudder because I worry that someone at IG might actually listen to them. For what it’s worth, people complained a fair amount about how simple some of the first few season 3 characters are in direct response to some of the more complex characters introduced in season 2.
I know they can’t please everyone, but I’ve found that I enjoy characters like Cinder, Gargos, Kan Ra etc a good deal more than Sabrewulf, Thunder, etc. But the nice thing about KI is that there’s still that kind of variety. Now, would I prefer it if the first six characters in season one were more on par with the complexity of some of the season 2 characters? Sure. But they’re not going to do that, even if I’d love for Sabrewulf to have a more interesting move set.
Then don’t play it. Problem solved.
There’s nothing wrong with wanting a tamer fighting game with a more linear combo system.
You have played Sadira, right?[quote=“SonicBros3D, post:27, topic:14664”]
Easy combo and Combo Assist (imo hard and stylish combos or drops are an important part of fighting game)
[/quote]
Have you tried turning it off, or I don’t know, using manuals?[quote=“SonicBros3D, post:27, topic:14664”]
Match ups
[/quote]
Some of the most balanced matchups I’ve ever seen in a FG…[quote=“SonicBros3D, post:27, topic:14664”]
Gimmicks or mix ups
[/quote]
Those gimmicks are what bring new players into the fold - it’s also why we have entirely unique and lovable characters like Aganos. Also, since when are mixups a bad thing?[quote=“SonicBros3D, post:27, topic:14664”]
Too much safe BS or unreactable and hard to punish
[/quote]
That’s why the game has the combo-breaker system.[quote=“SonicBros3D, post:27, topic:14664”]
Dumb play can win fundamentals
[/quote]
No, it can’t. Just try to button-mash or guess break against a player who knows what they’re doing and see what happens[quote=“SonicBros3D, post:27, topic:14664”]
Why sometimes in KI some Match Ups make me feel i’m fighting a final boss from another game ?
[/quote]
Because it pushes the limits, unlike many other FGs.
I’m a fool, so I’ll bite.
Please elaborate. Is your issue that there is too much MU-specific knowledge required to be effective? Or that the game has many wildly lopsided fights?
I think SFV requires a similar amount of character knowledge, though in that game knowing the particulars of your opponents’ frame data is more salient than keeping track of crazy “gimmicks” for the most part. And I’d say KI is very well balanced in general. Across the entire cast, can you name at least five 7-3 MU’s?
As in, jumping is literally “too easy”? Or that jump-ins are too strong? Or that AA’ing is too difficult or not rewarded enough?
KI certainly has serious aerial threat characters (Sadira, Mira, Maya, etc), but I’d say those are certainly more character issues than “game” issues. Most characters in KI have pretty good AA options against standard jump-ins, and some characters (Jago, Hisako) can actually really hurt you for trying an unsafe aerial approach. I actually think the risk/reward in SFV is substantially more skewed towards jump-ins than KI - you get crazy, functionally guaranteed damage from them in that game, and much of the cast can only challenge with something like a stand jab. The payoff of jump-in damage is weighted pretty highly towards continuing to try for them in that game - I have to AA jab you 5-6 times to make up the damage for even the most basic jump-in combo.
On this one, mostly just curious what games you play. Can’t be Marvel, because nothing in KI is remotely as dirty as the routine incoming shenanigans people have to contend with. MKX is basically 50/50: The Game, so curious on that as well. GG characters have about the same amount of craziness going on as the average KI character too.
The only modern 2D fighter I can think of that anyone could even attempt to describe as “honest” is SFV, and even that game has a legion of unreactable nonsense that makes a mockery of the word. Nash dash-in shenanigans, Mika’s Irish whip vortex, Laura’s fireball setups, anything Gief does within SPD range…I dunno man, I think you’re underestimating the amount of unreactable nonsense that comprises a good fighting game. 3 frame jabs, 12-14 frame dashes, the shimmy/throw mixup - all of these are essential to SFV, and not a one of them is reactable.
A personal preference. I don’t necessarily get hating CAM when you aren’t forced to use it and it doesn’t help anyone beyond beginners (it actively messes up more advanced tech a lot of the time), but you’re well within your rights to dislike it I suppose.
See above about the “unreactable” bit, but I agree that BS shouldn’t generally be safe *coughJagoDP->shadowfireballcough *, or that reversals shouldn’t require substantial effort to punish. On the plus side, a lot of that kind of thing (particularly the safe-ish reversals) have been greatly toned down in S3.
Of all the common complaints leveled against KI, I think this one is one of the most untrue. There are very, very few times in this game where “dumb” play is highly and consistently rewarded. Damage is too high across the cast to be able to get away with guessing and crappy neutral long-term. Calculated risks can be strong and beneficial, but so can DP->critical art or an irregularly timed jump-in in SFV. Neutral counts for a lot in KI - I find it very rare where obviously superior neutral loses to “dumb” play.
Every game has them. How is that a problem? Do you want every character to be the same?[quote=“SonicBros3D, post:27, topic:14664”]
-Gimmicks or mix ups
[/quote]
Gimmicks become free after some practice and mix ups exist in every fighting game.
Stylish and creativity still exist. Combo assist doesn’t help at all with those combos.[quote=“SonicBros3D, post:27, topic:14664”]
-Too much safe BS or unreactable and hard to punish
[/quote]
Examples.
If dumb play is beating your fundamentals, you have dumb fundamentals in KI.[quote=“SonicBros3D, post:27, topic:14664”]
Keep it simple like some other “fighting games” ? Why sometimes in KI some Match Ups make me feel i’m fighting a final boss from another game ?
[/quote]
Because you are.
What fighting game doesn’t have these “problems”
He’s probably been playing kof 14. You know the one where you mash light punch to get a combo lol
a fighting game that haven’t all these BS like :
full jumping game (like people please stop jumpinp that’s disgusting dude) ? Unreactable and unpunishable yolo ? Parry or deflection that give you more than half bar combo for pressing one button wtf just give the dummy a little 20% combo or only a thrown animation ? armor ? 0 execution and noob level combo ?
Yesterday i played Raam for the first time he did to me the screen BS i was like WTF IS THAT ?!!
Just make the game more respectable and less yolo, more punishable, more bnb, frame trape, footsies, etc…
And no full of boring and rewarded for gimmicks and mixe up.
What is the point of these hell match ups :
Orchid, SabreWulf, TJ, Kim Wu
VS
Aganos, Sadira, Glacius, Gargos
Like there is really people who enjoy that ???
That’s just some examples, there is a lot more bad match up and BS in this game…
Whatever you wanted some args, there it is.
People deciding to jump in a lot isn’t the fault of the game. It is your fault for allowing them to do so without anti-airing. If it is unreactable and unpunishable, it isn’t yolo is it? What character allows you to do a half bar combo or more with one button? What? A dummy with a 20% combo or throw animation? What? That doesn’t make sense. What is wrong with armor? MK has them and so does SF. Execution already exist. Combos outside the combo system exist.
How is it BS? Because you didn’t know it existed?
Game is already predictable. The players choose to yolo. People yolo DP in SF as well. You don’t force a community to stop yolo. It is up to you to be ready for it and punish. How do you make something more punishable? If you can’t punish well, then you should practice instead of the game adapting to you. Why do you want bnbs? I thought you didn’t like 0 execution and noob level combos? Sounds like you want KI to adapt to you instead of you adapting to KI.[quote=“SonicBros3D, post:35, topic:14664”]
And no full of boring and rewarded for gimmicks and mixe up.
[/quote]
So if you mix up the opponent, you shouldn’t get rewarded?
Orchid, Sabrewulf,and TJ can handle these characters fine. Kim Wu got buffs and we need time to tell. Also how is it possible that someone considers Sadira on the same level of Gargos? Sounds like you don’t feel like adapting and want the game to do the adapting for you.
I play Virtua Fighter and KOF…
When i come to KI it feels like it’s Smash Bros cause it’s ridiculous as a fighting game.
People will say yeah there is projectiles too in KOF, jumps, mixe ups, etc.
But dude, if you try to yolo and miss, or got blocked in these fighting games , hmmmmmmmmmmmm… <- oh dear
Try to miss a jump in KOF, YOU GOT SHREKT ! Like it’s over.
in KI jumps take no skill, push 1 direction touch the opponent, get free combo and damage for playing stupid, it’s so good dude…
One more, there is a thing in these games to avoid the yolo abuse and gimmicks called “escape”.
If someone yolo and misses or blocked,you get to start a xombo. If they jump,just anti-air. You don’t get free stuff from jumps.
Teach me how anti air with TJ sir mostly in KI ?
People say AA like it’s the easiest in this game, that’s not and it depends of the MU !
Another example :
You have a competitiv match, just 1 match to win. You play the king of jumpers 14. The game plan of the dude is to jump 50 times at the opponent by round…
Ok you gonna block one, two, free, four… Anti Air five, six, seven…
But will you avoid 10 jumps ? 20 jumps ? 30 jumps ?
No, you gonna get comboed and free damage for playing stupid and maybe losing.
You like that kind of gameplay in fighting game ? I don’t.
Anti air with TJ is easy. For preemptive jumping, make a read with Tremor. You can just roll under as an idea(have’t tested) You need to realize that TJ isn’t a defense character. If you are on defense with TJ,you messed up somewhere. By then,you should already have meter to do shadow cyclone punch.
As a KOF player, i couldn’t disagree more. Of course there a lots of different things and mechanics but saying its ridiculous is too much. Yeah, it’s weird to see so many normal jumps and crossed combos, get throw a lot more and get shadow specials canceled with easy, but it’s just a matter of get used and tune timing.