DMC3 is definitely more hardcore (though still far easier than Ninja Gaiden Black and Ninja Gaiden 2) but once you understand the mechanics and find a playstyle that works then the only “evil” part of the game is Dante Must Die difficulty (which is clearly intended, ever since the first DMC game). That was the big appeal of DMC3, it gives you so many options to make Dante play how you want, and while it made it’s difficulty clear (even seemingly taunting players with “Easy Mode is now selectable” if they die 3 times in the game) it eventually opens up and becomes far less intimidating than when most people first played it. Like anything else, it becomes easy with enough practice (except DmD, that an expert’s only mode).
Also I disagree with DmC Reboot on several points. The combat was too easy, the weapons were good but generally inferior to other games, the characters are not as well written, and the story was full of plot holes and awkward symbolism. It was also too reliant on platforming setpieces for my tastes. It’s still far superior to DMC2, because it actually knows it’s an action game and not a boring shooter like DMC2 was, but I felt it was just inferior to even DMC4 (a game I really began to dislike the more I played it).
Also Itsuno did want to made a sequel to the DmC Reboot, but Capcom forced his team to make DMC5 instead. I think he could have made it work to be honest, the reboot had good ideas that could have been greatly refined under Itsuno’s direction, as DMC5 has now proven.
Were just gonna have to disagree on DmC. I read what you have to say and I wonder “did we even play the same game?” Especially with things like the story and characters. Previous DMC games just feel poorly written (though that may be my dislike of anime showing through. DmC does feel more like a western game). I’m just attached to it more. Like I remember every weapon from DCM, but couldn’t tell you any weapons from classic beyond a few in 3. But that’s only because I had to spend so much ■■■■ time on it compared to the other games.
Let me put it this way, DMC3 FORCED me to keep playing with how hard it was (I swear i’ve never shouted ■■■■ YOU! At a game more in my life). But I remember DmC and want to keep playing because I love and relate to it.
Let me explain. With action games, and fighting games now that I think about it, I need to get into the zone. I don’t strategize. I don’t think. I just do. Because when I try to strategize and plan I overthink it and I crumble and fail. I can’t DO that in DMC3 because the enemies are so tough that I have to constantly be thinking and managing my resources and weapons. I can’t get into the zone with it. And all that muscle memory and skill just fades away and I just die. And die. And die. And die. And die. And die…
Two hours later
And die. And die. And die and die. And die! If you know a way to play that game (with all its “options”) and still be able to get into that zone, than please let me know. Because I BARELY managed to get to that final fight. And I still haven’t beaten it.
As a whole you’re not terribly wrong about the old DMC games and their writing, while there are a lot of anime-style methods of storytelling and characterization the DmC Reboot had it own set of issues. I don’t want to go into detail here because I don’t want to spoil the story of the DmC Reboot for those who haven’t played it, but if you want I can send a PM later where I try to detail things I didn’t like about it (and I mean later, trying to remember all the details will probably take the better part of an hour or two).
In the case of how I play games, I don’t really put that much strategy and planning in my playstyle, I just simply pay attention to the enemy attack patterns and react accordingly. Of course this explains why I’m terrible at RTS games, but in the case of fighters and action games I just focus on the mindgames and neutral. It does take a long time to even try to understand though, and for me at least it sometimes has the issue of “the game feels too slow now!” but that’s just how I’ve played games for years now.
On a side note if you truly want to play a game that makes you hate yourself, you can try Nioh (PS4/PC). Even with my knowledge of Souls and DMC games I still get stomped on Nioh pretty badly. I honestly hate that I have fun with it sometimes.
And based on how you describe your playstyle, that’s pretty much what I do too. Maybe not so much mind games (unless that doesn’t mean what I think it means, I’m not really sure). Except one of us can beat DMC3 on normal and the other can’t. Well, maybe I could. I mean, I’m at the final fight. I quit previously because I was just too frustrated. Maybe if I went in again I could do it but… I don’t know if it’s worth the whole day+ it would probably take.
When I say mindgames in single-player titles I mean paying attention to see if the enemy does something slow or unsafe, then attacking while they are in recovery frames (Souls games emphasize this as well, albeit more heavily due to lack of jumping). In DMC’s case this involves more jumping and rolling (or in the case of the later games you can use Trickster/Royal Guard to avoid most attacks), then going in with your own combos. The Vergil boss fights in DMC3 emphasized this by giving you an opponent that could do a lot of what Dante could do, and his own stuff as well.
Ultimately the best thing to do is to pay attention and remember what enemies can do, while not every boss has obvious weak points they usually have specific attack patterns they repeat, which can be used to your advantage.
Arg. That’s what I hate. I can’t get in the zone when I have to pay attention to patterns. I want to be hitting them so much and so fast that they don’t have time to attack because I’m just THAT powerful. I’m the badass demon hunter and I eat punks like you for breakfast. Heck. I eat punks like you as midmorning snacks! I can take you out with a meat 5% of my power. But that’s no fun. I wanna toy with you a bit and show off all these cool things I can do because I’m just that awesome! You never stood a chance! Now get off my planet!
Oops. Kind of went on a rant there…
Yeah I think somewhere in there is the disconnect I have with other fans of this genre.
It doesn’t take a million years to reach that level of skill, otherwise the DMC gods would be actual gods. Besides the patterns aren’t actually that hard, sometimes it’s just as simple as hearing specific sounds or seeing certain animations (like in DMC3 the Arachne enemies have a very specific sound when the do their lunging attack). I’m not saying it will be easy, but after a while you can understand certain parts of enemy logic fairly well, and then the game becomes slow motion and you wonder why you thought it was so fast to begin with.
Basically everything in DMC4 was a bad follow-up to DMC3. The worst parts were Nero’s stagnant playstyle, and how few bosses there were and how forgettable almost all of them ended up being. The best part should have been Dante getting all of his weapons and styles at once, but that was spoiled by bad combat balance that made many of his moves ineffective in practice.
Which is mission you are talking about? Mission 19 or Mission 20?
No, this is not true. Capcom never forced them to make DMC5. Itsuno (DMC5 director) was asked which games he want to make. Itsuno planned to make new Dragon’s Dogma sequel, but decided to choose DMC5 to make for original DMC community who want to see real DMC game returns instead of make Dragon’s Dogma 2
Mission 20. The culmination of my frustration and the point I was just like, ■■■■ IT! I’M LOOKING THE CUTSCENE UP ON YOUTUBE AND MOVING ON TO FOUR. ■■■■ YOU DMC3!
It’s nice to see people agree to disagree about things without having a big throwdown.
I played the original DMC and DMC4 (not 2 or 3). The original is a game that is really more than the sum of its parts. It more or less invented a new genre and it was unapologetically willing to subvert any kind of logic or internal consistency in favor of what was just “cool.” Dante is weird and cool on a way that’s hard to really describe and while he’s chatting with a demon spider (that took me FOREVER to beat) it leaves you with an amazing sense of identity for the game that’s hard to recreate.
I played to win, not to get SS ratings so I’m no expert player. Yes the games are hard but the definition of “hard” varies so much between individuals that it’s almost meaningless. And yeah the combat was terrific with lots of cool options and puzzles to sort out about what worked best when. But I would be lying if I didn’t say I mostly used the same few moves over and over throughout the game.
I found DMC4 pretty much the same (if not better). People hate on Nero prettymuch because he’s not Dante. Most of the “reasons” to complain about him smack of rationalization to me. That’s fine - to each his own. But I didn’t find the combat more monotonous than in the original. I understand 3 is regarded as the best game so it’s natural to have a down turn after that, but it’s still pretty clearly a DMC game. I think the emo Dante reboot suffered from the same. So much of the style of the original game is predicated in the answer to every question being “because it’s so cool.” But “cool” is pretty ephemeral and it would’ve almost impossible to change Dante and have fans be okay with it. I played some of the game and it seemed fine in the demo. But I never bought it and I’m not super interested in the fate of Emo Dante.
Yeah I felt the same way about DMC4, but it wasn’t DMC2 so unlike that game I tolerated it. It wasn’t until years later, when I bought the Special Edition on PS4, that I realized how bad the game was in the end. I still enjoy it though, and Nero was a fun little grappler type of character despite his otherwise limited moveset.
Really? Every time I heard about Itsuno making this game I only heard people saying that Capcom forced him to make this game instead of a sequel to the reboot. Clearly a lot of people were in the same train of thought as me during that time.
I don’t know if it really makes sense to get too wrapped up in this kind of debate. Even without malicious intent I don’t think companies always offer the unvarnished truth about their internal decision making and I’m always hesitant to think we really understand the “why” when it comes to the decisions they make.
Okay, so I just finished 5 and I have a question. I’ll hide it with a spoiler tag, but I want to know.
The Yamato can cut through dimensions. Why can’t Dante and Vergil just leave the underworld. In fact, demons escape that place all the time. How are they trapped?
Finished DMC5 last weekend. I was seriously impressed with how Dante’s gameplay turned out. It’s like they took everything people enjoyed about him from previous games put it all into one colossal package. The weapon loadout system plus the way his new abilities are implemented lets you play him however you prefer. And in general he feels really powerful, which is great.
I still think there are a few things DMC3 did better, particularly the story which was kinda weak and really predictable here. But so far 5 feels like a strong contender for best game in the series overall. I can’t wait to try out the harder difficulties, especially the bosses.