I have a feeling Rog will take the W here because SF has characters built with more superhuman intent. I’m rooting for TJ here, but you never know with Street Fighter characters considering their convoluted canon/non-canon story.
Anyway, lets go TJ!
Nah, I think TJ’s got this.
Objectively, who hits harder?
-
TJ, who can literally create shock waves of force with his punches that affect objects not connected to the ground?
-
Or Balrog, who killed and elephant with a single punch (<10,000 psi).
- If they use Balrog’s SFxT feats, then that may skew the calculations more in his favor. I’m not sure they will though.
What speed feats do you have for TJ that supposedly makes him faster than Rog? Also Balrog was technically able fight off Nicalli who only able to be beaten by Akuma at that time as well. So technically we can scale Balrog off of restricted base Akuma who is able to crack giant land mass with his punches. Most SF characters(mid-tier and up) are fast enough to dodge bullets and Balrog stalemating Cammy said a lot about his speed since Cammy herself was shown to dodge gun fire as well: https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111131174/3723513-cammy+feat+speed+vs+bullets+(2).png
Also even if SFxTK is non canon we can still use it to gauge certain abilities, and considering Rog was able to kill an elephant in one easily I’d say it wouldn’t be to hard to believe he’d be able to punch a car that hard plus in the comics he has a similar feat where he was able to flatten a car easily with one punch.
probably when he stands, but remember he is usually in a crouching stance
I think we are forgetting that TJ (current) is enhanced also… Balrog is a product of super human strength which as was mentioned before, is the underlying theme in SF, but… TJ is pretty super human himself…
The question of speed is tricky…
Are we talking forward movement, awareness, foot race? I think the only reasonable calculation to determine speed is how fast each character gets in on their opponent… Given they both are close combat characters…
Mentioning Balrog being able to “keep up” with Cammy might be a flawed analysis regarding speed… In a fight, Cammy can only attempt to harm Balrog in Close combat, she has no ranging tools,
Close combat is Balrog’s domain (so is TJ’s), so being faster does nothing for her as with high awareness, he can track her movements, especially while he himself isn’t mobile much…
I believe judging Balrog’s tools for getting in on his opponent, TJ has the advantage in that department… yes they both rush down, but with the power line, knee and roll, to me it’s clearly that he more quickly gets in and out for that matter, giving him a speed advantage…
Also, regarding strength, let’s remember TJ knocks down, launches and pushes back Aganos, who is basically a walking mountain…
The advantage Balrog has is in the multitude of displays & concrete analogies we have access to regarding his traits… TJ is limited to very old & outdated info, and a lack of exposure which provides hypothetical theories
While yes Balrog did defeat Necalli it wouldn’t put him near Akuma level
Necalli properly lost to Ryu (post training), M. Bison and Akuma (all top seeds)
He drew with Dhalsim and beat Ryu (pre-training) so Balrog could possibly be stronger than pre power of nothingness Ryu which still makes him one of the hardest hitters (purely based on strength)
I think Balrogs durability is is greatest strength to be honest…Tanking hits from Ryu, Zangief (sfv) and URIEN says a lot about what he can take
It is literally Brains v Brawn on this (it will be close but i want Balrog to win because he is just less…well boring than T.J.)
Balrog will win, these matches are based on the information collected, and as I said, Balrog just has way too much data & history available to lose…
I believe the same thing happened with Sub Zero vs Glacius… In my eyes, Sub Zero should not beat Glacius just from the bare fact that Glacius utilizes alien technology to enhance his Ice shell, in the game you get a limited amount of Ice armor, but theoretically, he should be able to bulk up indefinitely (of course sacrificing speed), also, the ability to liquefy nullifies Sub Zero, he should have no effect on Glacius using his Ice, which should be inferior to Glacius’ alien enhanced form of the element… IDK, in most cases, KI will lose due to the share lack of data out there… Only a few well developed characters (Jago, Orchid, Fulgore, Spinal, Gargos…) stand a chance
But Pre-trained Ryu is on equal footing to base Akuma in SF4:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iJJJkTLTMuU (2:47)
Mind you Ryu is only able to do this after gaining his confidence which make sense if when you consider Akuma will only fully fight(his shin form) Ryu after he’s consumed by the dark hadou which hinders him on many occasions.
Edit: Also this very same thing happened in SFxTK where Kazuya got the upper hand on Ryu due to the dark hadou becoming inflamed by Pandora box and the fact that Ryu and Kazuya start fighting on equal footing after enforces this.
That statement doesn’t make to much sense. Akuma was holding back, thus Ryu isn’t on “equal footing”, Akuma just didn’t go all out. Still though, the fact that Akuma even saw sport in Ryu at that time shows how much he improved since pre-SF1.
Sure Rog fought/kept up with Cammy, but TJ fought/kept up with Spinal (a teleporter)
and Fulgore (also a teleporter), not to menion charcters like Sadira, Cinder, and Orchid. This is also on top of keeping up with Riptor. Raptors are supposedly cheetah speed when running…so how fast can a 6ft, genetically altered, cyberneticly enhance Raptor move? And I should also mention that Riptor is like 700 lbs. Riptor running full tilt and slamming into you is like getting hit by a car.
Honestly, I don’t like scaling, but i guess sometimes it is unavoidable. Regardless, Rog defeating Neccali is an impressive feat, but as was said in a previous post, that feat alone doesn’t put Rog up there with Akuma and all them. Rog’s power comfortably put him on or slightly beyond Dahlsim’s level, who is mid to high tier in the lore. By that same scaling logic though, TJ is ridiculous seeing as how he defeated Fulgore MK1, and Fulgore MK2, as well as Orchid.
Fulgore MK1 is whatever in the context of KI 2013 (TJ beat him out the gate), but back in the OG days he was top tier. In the OG game the MK1 whooped TJ:
…thus the only people to have defeated him were Jago (in the game) and Orchid in the comic:
https://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/121691/5669759-orchid+vs+fulgore+05.png
Fulgore MK2 is/was MUCH more though, as he is upgraded in every way, and so it took the combined might of Jago and Orchid to put him down in KI2. TJ took on and defeated the MK2 alone in KI 2013.
Not to mention that he also took on Orchid on the way to getting his rematch with Fulgore. So with scaling, that means when TJ really gets going he is RIDICULOUS, able to hang with the titans of the series.
Beyond that, with Orchid at his back, TJ fought off an army of Fulgore Mk2’s at the end of his story mode, along with Cinder and ARIA in the fray. They were in the thick of the Pinnacle’s forces, fought them back, and survived/escaped. That is pretty crazy in itself.
I really think TJ’s regular tremor hits harder than Rog’s Gigaton Punch. I mean I haven’t done the calcs myself, but it just seems like that is the case. But regardless, TJ’s best punches are far beyond his standard tremor…
Who knows how high Glay goes in this clip, but he doesn’t come back down for some time.
Take note that Omen was in the air when he got hit by this tremor. That mean’s TJ is making a shock wave that radiates outward in all directions for dozens of feet, just with is strength alone. I believe this is the force that TJ uses in his Ultimate.
One thing too that I think they’re going to take into consideration, but TJ in KI2 used an Uzi in one of his Ultimates. Knowing how they like to play up the whole surprise dirty trick at the end of these DB fights, unless bullets don’t affect Balrog I feel if there’s any similarity in feats, TJ will show to be the dirtier player in that regard, just to make sure everyone remembers this isn’t a boxing match, it’s a death battle.
-
I don’t think you fully read my first comment. Of course Akuma is holding back against Ryu but the narrative is that Akuma wants a fight to the death with Evil Ryu so he can finally go all out against him with Shin form(unrestricted). This right here already tells you that Base Ryu = restricted Akuma and Evil Ryu = Shin Akuma and most of Akuma best feats are in his restricted form like cracking a large lands mass with a single punch also casually meditating at the bottom of the sea floor while one shotting a submarine.
-
Characters teleporting isn’t always synonymous with speed. Unless you’re trying to argue that Spinal have Wesker level of speed where to the normal human he appears to be teleporting but is simply moving faster than people can keep up.
-
Considering Balrog one-shotted Dalhsims elephant casually(mind you this alpha Rog who is much younger than SFV Rog) and considering that Rog is able to casually stop a car in full speed with a punch the Riptora shouldn’t be all that much of a problem: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tP79Bs_Lt_o (5:16)
-
But the problem I have with the scailing for TJ off of Fulgore off of Jago and Orchid is what feats do Fulgore possess that make his loss against Jago and Orchid so impressive? Like looking back at DeathBattle Orchid and Fulgore battles, all they did was say that Orchid and Jago was supposedly “demi-god” killers and which is really vague considering what could be considered Demi-god or even God level in KI would be still be weak sauce compared to say Marvel or DC and plus "demi-god and “god” are mostly just titles really. As for thier explanation with Orchid and her victory against Eyedol, they claimed Eyedol beat many armies over the span of a 1,000 which still isn’t very imformative but its something for Orchid to scale off of but now the question is what kind of armies did Eyedol defeat in particular?
Scaling can only work if the strongest person you’re scaling has actual feats that be applied to the characters they fought.
- Can’t say much about TJ tremor punch and all more depends on how DB decides to interpret it.
- No it doesn’t. Yes Akuma sees potential in Ryu and wants to bring out the “E. Ryu” form in him, but that DOESN’T mean Ryu’s base form has progressed to the point that he matches Akuma in “base” form. Just saying “Akuma’s base form” is misleading, as Akuma IS NOT like some super Saiyan, he has gradients to his power for sure, but him dicking around to try and push Ryu to the next level is just that, him dicking around.
And Akuma meditating on the sea floor is a non-canon event, but still, it’s whatever. IMO Akuma get wanked to all hell, but still he is ridiculously powerful in SF terms.
- Yes, teleporting isn’t akin to “speed” per say, it’s actually instantaneous movement. Akuma’s teleport is speed related, as he moves from one place to the other extremely quickly. Characters like Spinal, or Fulgore, can move farther distances quicker like a Nightcrawler-esqe BAMF! That type of speed, depending on how it’s used, and who is using it, is far more dangerous than just speed.
Someone else said it, that characters like Balrog have great special awareness and reaction time rather than great “speed” per say. Balrog can track the movements of very quick punches (he a boxer after all), and thus he can track the attacks of pretty quick attacks from other fighting styles as well. All I’m saying is that TJ is similar, but probably better at it seeing as he fights people who can actually teleport around him.
-
There is no evidence that Rog one-shotted an elephant “casually”. By definition when Rog uses his GP he’s actually trying… Unless you have evidence that Rog has gradients in power to his GP.
-
Check out my Orchid Respect thread:
Scaling TJ off Orchid and Fulgore is easier than you think. Scaling them in regards to Eyedol or Gargos is a bit fuzzier though.
Fulgore is a nuclear powered Robot/Android standing 6’5”, and weighing 550 lbs. He has the mind of a former KI champion in him (Eagle), a champion that ARIA said was the greatest technical fighter on the planet, and all this came together because ARIA (a singularity of human intelligence) used Glacius’s stolen alien tech. I haven’t made a respect thread for Fulgore, but knowing that he defeated TJ, took both Jago and Orchid to the brink 1v1, the only 2 characters
canonically to have taken on and/or defeated Eyedol and Gargos, is saying something.
That being said, with Fulgore there is always the “is this the real Fulgore” question running around. Canonically in the story, the Fulgore mk3 prototype is the one that is the “real boy” Fulgore. That’s the one who has achieve his individuality. That is the one who defeated Orchid in KI 2013. That is the one who confronted Thunder in Nez Perce. That is the one that Aganos and Thunder are searching for throughout Season 2. But yeah, the Mk1 and Mk2 are still undoubtedly powerful, and it takes a well above a verage fighter to defeat one in 1v1, let alone in a 10v1.
- I hope they do calculate the force needed for TJ to produce those tremors. The only thing I can equate TJ’s punches to are meteors, or explosives, as those can create the shock waves need to reproduce what TJ does. But yeah, I have nothing to back that up, let alone put numbers to, so all that is just my subjective opinion.
Landing a hit =/= equal (this aint dragon ball z XD) becasue that would suggest that Bison (SFII) is FAR stronger than Akuma (which he is not) since it took Ryu, Ken, Chun-li, Guile and Cammy to take him down in the C.Viper prolouge which explains what really happened during the events of SFII…as well as Ken who beat Ryu (mid training) in the SFV story
also Akuma beats post training Ryu as well
Strongly Disagree…Evil ryu is like V-Trigger Necalli level. Shin Akuma is straight up the strongest canon character (above Gill and Bison)
What are you talking about? SF2 Akuma had to sneak attack Bison in order to get his match against Ryu: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NVQayK9pjyE
This right here should tell you that Akuma at that point was now Bisons level yet and also how do we know that was post training Ryu?
I guess. There is an Udon comic out there with Nothingness Ryu vs Oni, and Ryu comes out on top. But that comic has some parts to it too that I don’t quite understand with my current level of SF comic knowledge right now.
This info it would seem has been retconned.
The Akuma “killing” Bison in SFII was retconned in Street fighter 4 (bisons win quote in SFV further suggests they have never met yet)
just to show how strong Akuma is, In street fighter 3 Oro says that Akuma and himself are roughly the same power level…Oro fights his opponents with one arm just to hold himself back and he faces and defeats Ryu but then takes him under his wing as says it would take him roughly 15 years before he will be on his level
.We know it was post training ryu as Akuma acknowledges his use of the Mu-no-ken (power of nothingness) before they fight meaning this happened after Ryu faces Bison in Akuma story mode
Yeah i remember that comic as well as the moment where gill beats evil ryu and Oni at the same time which is a tad odd but all the SF comics are non-canon. They are pretty good though (i will say they got worse around the Gill saga)
They put this up some time ago…
Check out @ScrewAttack’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/ScrewAttack/status/896106104618311680?s=09
Pretty…