Combat Feedback Wanted; Help Shape the Future of KI! (Breakers and Potential Damage)

General Discussion
41

I do know how an ender level is determined, I think I just worded my original question poorly;

Should the ender level control not only the numerical amount of PD retained, but the percentage?

For example (and using simple numbers rather than realistic amounts of PD), in the flat 50% scenario, 100 PD will always be reduced to 50 PD regardless of Ender Level.

What I’m asking is whether Ender level should be determining the percentage retained, meaning with 100 PD a successful breaker at Level 1 leaves you with 20 PD, Level 2 leaves you with 30 PD, level 3 leaves you with 40 PD, and Level 4 leaves you with 50 PD.

The reason I’m asking this is because I think it would add increased amounts of value to higher Ender Level combos, as you have not only built up more PD but will retain a higher percentage of that PD if your opponent breaks.

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42

I think Keits’ point is that since potential damage and ender level directly correlate, it’ll end up working that way anyway with only very slight variations in certain scenarios.

Edit: Just realized what you meant, my bad. Seems unnecessary, really.

43

Right, and I think it over-complicates explaining the change if you do that, instead of just changing 1 rule (restores 100% pd) to 1 new rule (restores 50% of pd)

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44

The game has already gotten complicated enough as it is (S1 dojo not helping matters) so simplicity is welcome.

45

I applaud this type of communication, directly from Developer to Community. In my experience with another game in particular that does this, it strengthens the heart of the community.

That said, my initial reaction is positive. After I read Keits’ post, it occurred to me that one of the cons of the game is that landing a breaker is very powerful. There’s justification for this, though - when you’re playing at an intermediate-advanced level, you will deal with manuals. Breaking a manual is no easy feat and the reward should match.

@TheKeits Has IG given thought to the idea that breaking an auto-double rewards 50% of the potential damage removed, while breaking a manual rewards 75-80% removed? Numbers subject to tweaking, more interested in the idea itself than the actual numbers as I trust the judgment of you and your team.

More on the 50% breaker reward, I imagine doing this would break away from what I think of as a typical Street Fighter back-to-neutral scenario. What I mean is, once you get out of pressure (breaking a combo), the instinct of both players, in my experience, is to maintain distance and reset everything to neutral.

Leaving damage on the table is a great incentive for an additional layer of mind games - is the attacker going to double-down on his assault and charge right in? Is he going to make it look that way but then back off/block/insert-defensive-strategy? Killer Instinct is the king of mind games so this change lends itself to that theme.

The biggest ‘con’, which is only a con depending how you look at it, is that I think this change will put a lot of pressure on you, IG, to balance characters, as you mentioned, that are geared towards creating potential damage and claiming it. All characters will have this same motivation. Since this change would take away parts of other character’s identities, how will you go about restoring that? Will Cinder still feel like Cinder with lesser-tuned PD? Or will this homogenize PD characters? I don’t have an opinion one way or another on this yet, nor do I expect you to have an answer. Food for thought.

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46

this honestly is such a hard subject in my book. i feel that yes it would benefit a lot of players due to guess breaking being extremely high but yet i feel it would benefit some characters way too much. I personally don’t think this is the answer to balance the game.

47

First off, thanks to everyone top down within IG for both outreach to the players as well as

Also, if this thread doesn’t get the attention of players that have harped on the breaker system and make their voice heard, i don’t know what else can be said.

Reading the thread, i have two questions. Would the rate at which PD currently decreases be affected by this? Or is that being left as it stands? I kinda remember stacking PD in training mode just to see how fast it diminishes and it starts slow then picks up pretty fast. Other question was does the delay in PD reducing only relate to within the combo system? For example, Kim Wu hits a opponent with raw Shadow Dragon Kick and does no followup. Does that 1 to 2 seconds of delay happen in that sort of out-of-combo instance?

Again, thank you to the IG staff. Very much appreciated.

48

And maybe it is, I’m not experienced enough with the in-depth numbers to know - I just play KI for fun honestly.

I thought it was worth asking, because it came to mind while reading his initial post, and I think it would push the value of high-ender level combos even further.

A little calm, rational discussion has never hurt anybody anyway. :smiley:

@TheKeits would the delay to recovering PD apply to ALL PD recovery (whiffed Counter Breakers or dropped combos/resets for example) or is the delay specifically related to a breaker happening?

50

No, but it will take longer before it begins depleting.

This change only relates to the scenario after a combo breaker. EDIT: Or not.

51

1.) The healing rate would not change, just the delay before it begins.
2.) If Kim hits shadow Dragon Kick with no followup, the healing wouldn’t start as quickly as it does now, giving her a bit more opportunity to take that PD.

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52

All PD in all situations, which is why characters make a business of inflicting PD needed to see a little reduction here. This doesn’t hinder their playstyle at all, it just shifts a little bit. Slightly less threat, but the threat remain around for longer.

53

Sounds good.

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54

Thanks for the clarification!

55

Oh.

That’s…hmm.

I feel we may be treading on a minefield here :hushed:

This seems like a little much. But I guess I’ll have to see it myself first.

56

I think KI has always walked a knife’s edge. Its a very experimental game, for sure.

We have heard your voices over the years, though, that getting broken is frustrating and you want your successful offense to count for more. This is another (big) step in that direction.

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57

Which also has the added potential of drawing the attention of those who have decried the Combo Breaker system detracting from “winning neutral.” Adding new (and especially competitive/streaming) players to the KI community is never a bad thing.

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58

I’m gonna keep reading, but one last question (so far). About how long is this up for discussion before a decision gets made?

I don’t know exactly what you’ve seen in your internal testing, but it sounds like a game changer. For myself, i welcome the change. It sounds like it makes the game both more thoughtful and more aggressive at the same time.

I am deathly scared of Cinder now…

EDIT - This seems like something that ought to be on the front page, get as many voices heard.

59

I agree, and I’m glad you guys are willing to listen to us and take chances, but extra delay on PD in all situations? This may shift character balance in ways we don’t expect, even for characters who don’t heavily rely on PD specific tools. Just a warning.

60

Hi … Thanks for your good work and in this game. I think That recovering 70% PD istead of 100, and PD recovery speed 75% slower than now . Could be good. I like the idea , I hope the implementation to be the best possible .

61

If they’re going to make the change, the change should be a flat one. Tying restored PD to ender level or AD vs manual or whatever just adds more complexity to a game that’s already pretty complex from a system standpoint.

I’m whatever on the change. I think the crying about guess breaking is largely overblown, and I don’t think it will really affect the way most “pro” players approach offense or defense within the combo game. People value ther setups and their resets, and I don’t think losing the damage is the main reason they’ve complained about guess breaking so vehemently. I think it has more to do with them not liking any sort of reset situation out of their successful offense. I think it might encourage more use of heavies among a set of players, but those are also probably the players who were already using heavies and generally trying to convert lockouts and such into big damage.

I don’t think it’s a bad change by any means - just don’t think it’s going to bring anyone back or really change the way a lot of the most vocal critics of the breaker system ultimately feel about breakers. People feel their damage/setup after opener should be guaranteed, and they’ll probably still complain when they get guess broken off their light manual after cr.LK->cr.LK->opener confirm. It should be interesting to see it play out though - breakers in the corner are going to be all sorts of nuts.

I personally like the breaker system of KI, and I like that the defense gets such an obvious incentive to break things. I think the cool flip side of that are the myriad ways the offense has to stymie and punish those attempts. My big hope would be that this change doesn’t see counter breakers even further marginalized than they already are by the player base. What have the testers’ experiences been like @TheKeits? Have you noticed any significant changes in the attempts/success of counter breakers under the new system?

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