Not only in “neutral”, you can use it during a juggle. If you have meter to spare, use a shadow trailblazer during an air combo, and cash it later with a shadow fireflash, or recapture into another ender!
Hmm…I’ll give it a try. You should share more info on this later. Ya seem to know what you’re doing.
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Everything in this game points at Cinder as a tatical fighter. If you want to have a chance for winning a hard match you had to rely on tatics using pyrobombs, burnouts, etc… And still high risk character to play since its easy to stop his shinanigans. But you gotta focus on shadow fission thats where his strenght are shown. And you have to be good with aerial moves. So it concerns me. Cinder figures in the game like one of those forgotten characters that most of the people dont like to play with. Remember Doctrine Dark? Yeah to me i guess people will remind Cinder like this kind of character in the future.
Cinder has a lot of issues. His gameplay aren’t interesting and rely on shinanigans. His redesing are silly like a clown fighter and nobody i know take him as a serious opponenent. The VFX still inferior to older games. It pisses me off that characters like Oni from SV4 has better VFX effects. Sorry but only new lightining ain’t gonna help him as he is now.
If i was going to buff him i could take his pyrobombs and combine it with 3rd degree. Cinder could no longer be able to throw them but use it as his gloves and deliver blasting punches so he could recover his old tiltle of legit rushdown character.
Trailblazer is way too weak. It used to be one of his main moves in the old KI but it dont serve him in the ground anymore. Once again, shinanigans.
Cinder isnt really Ben Ferris anymore. Just his clone with mental issues. Yep. A retarded clown on fire.
Everything you said up to this point is opinion.
Personally I like Cinder’s new look and I think he could of been made much worse, plus he has the best retro in the game in my opinion.
Also If we did go full rush down he wouldn’t be any more uniqe than Sabrewulf in some small manner. Obviously Cinder isn’t easy character to master, but for me, neither was Fulgore but I still stuck by them. I love these characters that much.
Nothing a little bit of practice can do to get better as Cinder. In the old KI, His trailblazer was good, but maybe…too good? I admit the new trailblazer is more on zig-zagging through the air than straight on but that thing was fast as all hell. Add his ability to pass through projectiles and now we have some possibly BS shinanigans on our hands. Cinder in KI1 was a tad OP, but in this game I admit, you have to work and think a little harder to play him well. Which is fine because it’s normal for figting games in general to have characters that need a bit more skill to use.
Cinder was boring and I wasn’t interested in him at all in the original KI.
I find him fascinating and really unique in this one
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If I had seen this I would have jumped in much sooner.
No offense, but don’t speak for me on this one. There are two characters I really enjoy in this game, and one of them is Cinder. I dropped Thunder for him, who was my main since day 1 or season 1. In season 2 Thunder just couldn’t keep up with the cast around him, and when I picked up Cinder and noticed the INSANE new level of mobility and freedom I never had with the slow walking Thunder before, I loved every second, Fulgores no longer could run from me and I had way better wake up reversals. Though given the season 3 changes, I think I may try Thunder again soon.
I don’t understand the logic to changing a very easy motion for trailblazer to something more complicated, and given that inferno uses a quarter circle motion + kick already, it almost seems counter-intuitive to give it this motion. I kinda have to lean on Occam’s Razor on this one, and show favor to the simplicity of the input.
As far as the trialblazer priority, I can understand why the regular versions show no priority. It’s such a powerful mobility tool that gains ground so fast and can be an opener under the right conditions, giving it too high a priority can lead to a much more mindless gameplay style. I will say though, I disagree with some of the shadow trailblazer stuff though, in the fact while I don’t mind not being able to control it’s direction, I would like it to have a little more priority so you can’t just be jabbed out of it. Maybe the priority of a medium or heavy, just anything better than a light. I would also like it to cover a little more ground, because as an projectile invincible move, it sometimes fails, namely against Glacius flurries where the linger for a while and you can come out of the projectile invincible frames and still get hit (yes, I have had that happen).
I happen to think his third degree chain is a pretty powerful tool, makes great juggles, pressure, cancelable into specials, block strings, and the full string can be executed on whiff, and the third heavy hit is jump cancelable for juggle opportunity. I can get a lv 2 burnout using it, a single pyrobomb throw cancel and a recap. So with all the usefulness of Third Degree, it has to take a hit in order for it to be remotely fair and not OP, and unfortunately that means range was most likely gonna get hit. They aren’t bad they are just situational, like a lot of Cinder’s game.
Also, his standing HK isn’t bad, and when spaced right can make a decent anti air normal, and crouching HP is decent too, being jump cancelable for juggle follow up. However, it will be difficult for him to maximize the usefulness of heavies ignoring armor in season 3, but anyone who plays Cinder effectively should know Cinder’s lockdown/rushdown style is something you have to work on, but it gets amazing, flashy, and creative results.
I disagree greatly, as @SightlessKombat can tell you how amazingly annoying Cinder’s grab actually can be, and is only going to be even worse in season 3 when you can cancel it for a free level 1 burnout. While it’s range is short, it’s fairly easy to surprise your opponent with and can easily turn into some powerful, quick combos without needing meter to be effective.
You also forget that trailblazer can negate a lot of projectile games in the fact that aerial trailblazer can simply fly over straight travel projectiles, like endokukens, fulgore blade and hype beams, horizontal searing skulls, ground hail, daggers. It’s extremely useful in that regard, and allows for a quick slam back to earth at a measly -3 advantage.
A lot of Cinder’s gameplay style depends on a lot of things, making use of a lot of his useful, but situational specials, and basically being able to condition your opponent to think before acting and giving them reason to pause. Once you’ve effectively conditioned them to fear you, you then have more free reign to control the fight and hit them hard. It’s a more methodical approach to the game, almost as thought provoking and challenging as any kan ra player’s setups. He’s not meant to be an easy mode character, just easy execution, which is to help make up for his less damaging options.
While his damage on his own is without a doubt weaker than any else, his burnout enders, which are very easy to use, give you a great deal of leverage and can easily turn around the fight very quickly if the opponent isn’t careful, giving you free level 4 damage enders for devastating meterless damage.
CPU vs CPU matches are irrelevant to matchup data and can not be used as a distinguishing factor for success of a character, it more or less just shows how well made or poorly executed the AI script running that character can be. You also have to know the computer (literally) cheats in a lot of ways, and in the computer match mode is no different. The computer actually doesn’t have to input directional’s or anything, it just activates specials, and dictates positioning and frame data to calculate the most appropriate counter move. It doesn’t care about mixups, resource management, comeback mechanics, etc.[quote=“Yperdaimonios, post:17, topic:6852, full:true”]
i understand he is more tactical. but ( except that i miss his absolute rushdown self) i think is lacking comboness with all of his tools , like you just do hits and bombs ,and eventually lacking some KIness.
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His ability to combo is probably better than anyone else in the game. He has so many options to punish into full combo, throw into combo, pressure into combo, he can open up into combo in a ridiculous number of ways, more so than just about anyone. He has invincible meterless reversals that can lead into combo, POWERFUL frame advantage specials and Shadows, surprisingly quick meter gain, my favorite projectile in the game since it’s so versatile and useful for lockdown, damage, ender scaling, and will now be throwable at the end of a trailblazer. He’s got some of the best mixups in the game and a really good instinct mode he can activate in the air and on ground, one of two characters capable of that. He’s got so many good tools, he needs to be kept in check, which is where the lower average damage comes in.
It does leave you at +4 on block, and sets up my favorite frame trap. I would like it to travel further though, as stated earlier, and maybe have a priority of a medium or heavy, if not a special or shadow.[quote=“Dayv0, post:33, topic:6852”]
Same as Shadow fssion, Inferno or pyrobomb. All of them have “flaws”, but together, they can cover almost all situations.
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I agree, the sum of the parts of Cinder’s gameplan are much greater than the total, and cover practically any situation.
I like Cinder a lot, even with him being as tough to use as he is, but he has crazy advantages few other fighters have.
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The best quote, imo. Totally agree.
(I should and will post this in the nitpick thread. )
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Everyone whining about about how weak Cinder is probably don’t know the right way to play him.
He’s not a zoning character or a rushdown character. He’s a trickster that tries to bait opponents into making mistakes and punishing them with aerial or grounded combos. You have to make good reads and be patient, not rush in like a maniac.
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Agree.
In other fighting games, there are several “character archetypes”, but in KI not always all it’s set in stone
Some examples:
Balanced: Jago
Rushdown: Sabrewulf
Zoning: Glacius, Kan-Ra
Grappler: Thunder
Some characters are very hard to fit in any of these.
Aganos has good rushdown once chunked, but it’s also a good zoner
Maya can’t fit at all in any of them, She is very unique.
Hisako has traits of a Grappler, but her counters and her hits when warth it’s full makes her more complex than this.
And of course, Cinder has tools for rushdown and zoning, but that doesn’t makes him balanced or anything. It’s what his personality its: A character that taunts you into making mistakes and make you pay for them. It’s a jack of all trades, he can fit in any situation and adapt to his opponent. He can run away, run into the action, punish you for touching buttons, do juggles like nobody…
Not a rushdown, but more…
As Sadira main I gotta disagree. Cinder gives me the most trouble of any match up in the game. He has sooo many was to stop my girl it’s just not fun. If I see someone is going to pick cinder I usually just go with my pocket character Shago.
Ya know what I find funny?
I said this in a similar situation but it was Glacius, people who thought he was weak should try fighting him as Cinder. lol.
Seems odd for us both being on opposite ends of the spectrum now ain’t it?
I still feel the only thing really wrong is Cinder’s shadow-trailblazer is not a good “get in” tool. But otherwise I agree with you in everything else.
We all have issues with certain MUs for example, Sadira is a pain to squish with Fulgore for me. Glacius is like puncing a giant mountain with a boxing glove, without the strength to break it. That’s when I’m using Cinder.
Cinder v Glacius is not as bad as people seem to think. And I main both those characters.
If you had said that to me when I was still learning this MU I would of disagreed in most zealous way, lol.
When you first start is it can be a struggle and it depends on what happens. Glacius can escape easily and he can set up hail and other stuff. Your only option to close in is trailblazer which is hard to maneuver around all the hail and junk flying across the screen. Plus Icicle kicks a plenty can really, REALLY pester the hell out of you.
In this MU it’s when you realize how strong Glacius’ defensive abilities are.
Because of this you cannot rush him like other characters do. You can sitll use the same principle in getting in Glacius space and make him feel un-easy but unlike other characters, this is most difficult for Cinder.
So really at the end of it all you’ll have to use pyro bombs which, if you can stick Glacius at all you may have a chance.
As for the icicle kick, this was one of the sole reasons it was hard for Cinder. Against everyone else a well placed anti-air puts Glacius on the ground quick, against Cinder, everything else does not work EXCEPT for a well timed light kick. and even that can potentially be a miss. It’s a risk but if you do it well enough you can curb Glacius.
The point I’m trying to make is against Glacius no one has to work any harder than Cinder because his main mobility tools do not do him much in taking a hit.
So what I suppose I meant to say by the metaphor is: it’s not impossible to beat Glacius, but as Cinder it’s harder than most other match-ups from my experience.
Jumping LK and Inferno. Learn it Live it Love it.
Inferno currently does not go anywhere near far enough to be reliable as an anti-air. However in season 3 it will be more viable so there’s that.
Never said it was for an AA.
ok average full Cinder combo deals 20% damage (no shadows, with shadows it goes about 40-45%), to do a full cinder combo you have to juggle every opener,linker and ender, or go straight (which is very weak) plus you use multiple buttons. there are characters that do 20% damage with 2 hits,no juggle,same button.
i know he can cash out bigger damage with his inferno but IMO this is also a disadvantage because even his bigger damages are doubtful. i think now in season 3 when you can hold the button during inferno, it would be better to have an option not to burn the opponent in time by tapping the button, but also cashing the damage out immediately by holding the button during ender.
also his bombs may be fast but IMO they are not projectiles, they are openers. and this makes him even slower in general. because he has to set the whole attack in 2 times. imagine jago’s fireballs not cashing out immediately but instead the opponent having the time to block even after hit.
about increasing his mobility (with immediate up or backward trailblazer) just think what rash can do with his tongue, and still it is not enough.
this stands only when the opponent is inactive.during battle it is much more difficult than anyone i think.
what i said about CPU vs CPU is that i was watching his match and (probably because CPU goes rushdown) he could not do anything against other opponents.he cannot hit forward.
plus i was watching the stream yesterday and almost nobody chose Cinder and the guy who chose him lost in all his battles.
P.S. thanks anyone for the great answers.
P.S. 2 is a jump to throwing bomb to trailblazer to activate bomb to normal possible in season 3?
You can land some good combos with Cinder, you just have to work for it. In Cinder’s case sure that can make thing s abit more difficult but keep in mind practice makes perfect. And his bigger damae with Inferno is actually pretty good. If you can get people to keep pressing buttons or doing something dumb you just throw in a short combo and BOOM all that built up damage works for you.
Even with not pressing anything they still have damage built up. You will not beleive how much damage I did in a match with a freind of mine. Beofre I lit him up he was on 3/4 of a life-bar and when I lit him up and a few buttons he was pressing when he shouldn’t be pressing kept on, I landed a combo and he had less than 1/4 of his life left, after that a swift light crotch punch ended the fight for him.
If you can’t cash the damage with the inferno, you should at least use it to lock down certain buttons of your opponents. Study the match-ups and learn what buttons do what moves, and learn your opponent’s habit, if you light them up the right way they’ll be forced to to change their habits. That’s one way you can set the fight in your favor.
Note: he was Omen.
Also please understand: CPU vs CPU is not a viable factor here because the A.I’s just doing what it does. It’s not thinking complext strategies, or planning ahead, it’s just acting and reacting. A.I in this game can’t think on te same complicated level as a human player can. So to me a CPU v CPU isn’t a good way to argue Cinder’s weaknesses. The A.I in a way acting like how one should not act when playing as Cinder.
If you’re using the A.I as a guide to how you play a character that’s your thing, but I don’t think you’re gonna get away with alot of wins for very long against players who are vigilant to your tactics.
As for the possibility of jump into trailblazer, you may need practice that when the game launches tomorrow.
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are 1.bomb to trailblazer 2.throw a bomb and activate it, in the same jump, possible in season 3?
All of what you are saying is true. But Cinder is a character who can be all over the place, not getting hit. He isn’t a traditional, open - combo - damage character. He wants to frustrate the opponent with chips and juggles, frustrate them into getting opened up (a direct attempt to open your opponent with Cinder is indeed, fairly difficult), set up inferno and then hopefully build big damage or else limit the opponent’s options by forcing them not to hit buttons, thus allowing them to get opened up again - then either do a straight combo or quickly cash out all the nice potential damage, depending on how much white bar there is. He is really momentum based. If you can get things rolling then you are in good shape, but it can be difficult to start. You also have a lot more to keep track of and strategic decisions to make. “Do I go for a burnout ender here? How much potential damage can I cash out? How close is my opponent to the end of his life bar? How likely am I to get broken before I cash out this huge white bar? etc.”
I really love Cinder, as a character. I took him into ranked and got him to level 50, basically playing ranked matches. But I am not really very good at his play style. It’s one of those things where I either completely destroy people - because they don’t understand the matchup, or they completely destroy me - because they do understand the matchup. I haven’t invested the time and energy into getting good at the tricky bits with Cinder. But that’s on me not on Cinder.
I am sympathetic to your asks, because I was hoping for a much simpler character that played more like the original. We didn’t get that. But that doesn’t mean the character is weak. I think the general consensus (with which I pretty much agree) is that Cinder is a tough character to win with, but that he is not low tier. He just takes some real effort to learn. You can either enjoy that learning process and adapt, or move on to a character who suits your desired playstyle better. Unfortunately, the complexity of Cinder overall makes it really unlikely that they will make the kind of adjustments that you are hoping for, because as others have pointed out, it will throw him hopelessly out of balance for those who are already adept at using his tricks.
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