You have to consider that Cinder differs significantly from the cast, he isn’t designed to do heavy damage like a Jago would by just going in. He requires finesse and technique. Locking players out and burning people up make the difference.
Simply put, you have to play smart. @BHswordsman09 showed me during an 8BBD how much damage you can get if you control the pacing and neutral game.
Well, 25% really, but you start spending shadow on linkers and he can turn up his damage output pretty quick, and on a lockout with some heavy autos you can hit just as hard as anyone. Granted it’s not going to be 60% like Thunder or even a modest 50% like Jago. But if you’re asking for an general buff to his damage, we would all like that, and it’s nothing we haven’t asked for, but if it did happen, Cinder would have to take a penalty against something else in his gameplan. Personally, I don’t like this. I would rather do less than average damage than lose any of my Cinder options.
So, you’re looking for a way to safely accumulate damage without being combo broken, and cashing out damage in an opener to ender situation?
Openers? I really think that’s a stretch on this point. But yes, they are indeed projectiles, they collide and destroy other projectiles, and the serve the same purposes as any of Jago’s fireballs, and more. But these are even better in my opinion because they interact in a more unique way than any other fireball in the game.
If you have a plasme crazy Jago tossing out fireballs mindlessly, and you are tossing pyrobombs to keep up, you can time a shadow pyrobomb and when he destroys it with his fireball, it still explodes with that pretty giant hitbox and sends the opponent flying, and that one hit does some pretty excellent damage, which it should for a single hit shadow move. That’s just one example of the ways the pyrobomb is way better. Even in fireball wars, it gets an explosive box upon being destroyed, rather than right away. The Arbiter’s plasma nades work on several similar principle’s, but I still don’t think they are as awesome as the pyrobomb.
Okay, at this point, this is a personal opinion. I honestly don’t see how a straight up trailblazer is of any benefit. He sort of already does that anyway in his heavy trailblazer, but if you want a straight up trailblazer, why not just jump up instead? And as for backwards, you have a backdash. Both of those avenues are covered. At this point, having that as a prime direction for trailblazer is a little pointless.
Now for rash, he doesn’t have the backdash like cinder, or a follow up a tongue, where cinder can follow up his trailblazer for one or two afterburners. Finally Rash’s tongue did ZERO damage, and can NOT be used as a linker or an ender, and it doesn’t even combo, it inflicts some hitstun on hit, but at long distances it can’t combo. Finally, that tongue is meant to devour projectiles for shadow as well. So while Rash may have eight way versatility to his tongue, it by no means can do half of what trailblazer is capable of, and if used incorrectly, can put you at way bigger risk than any situation trailblazer could.
What? I’m not even sure what this really means… You mean, during neutral when the opponent is letting you do whatever you want his combo ability only works then, but while you’re on the defensive it doesn’t? I honestly don’t know how to interpret that statement…
All I will say is, if you can’t open your opponent for a combo, maybe it’s how you’re using him, and less about him being weak? Because I don’t have a problem opening my opponents usually. When I lose, it’s MY fault for not having the knowledge of an appropriate counter tactic. I know Glacius is a tough match, but he is for everyone, that’s what fighting Glacius is supposed to be like, as an example. But Cinder has every tool to get in and do damage on ice man. If I lose, it’s my fault be either not being patient enough to find my opening, or not keeping up pressure when I should, or being too predictable.
Again, no CPU vs CPU data is relevant in any way, so you may as well drop this point. CPU’s are only as good as they are programmed to be. Everyone knows Shadow Jago only breaks as often and easily as he does because the game on Kyle difficulty plays so mindlessly, it literally does “cheat” at combo breakers. AI demos are literally the worst example of how anyone should play Cinder.
That’s not indicative of Cinder being weak, it’s indicative of that the particular player using him may not have him as a main, and doesn’t do well because he doesn’t have any idea of matchup data or specifics of what to do as Cinder. Again, this is a player skill vs character argument. Even a weak player can lose with a powerhouse like Thunder or Tusk if they don’t know what they’re doing.
Not sure what you mean by this, but I’ll see if I can test something like this tomorrow when it drops and maybe it’ll give you an idea of what to look forward to using.
I agree Andy, this puts it perfectly. There’s a lot of thought behind how Cinder plays, and you have to calculate your options on the fly a lot. He’s not a simpler character to pick up and play, but his complexity gives him advantages no other character has, but you have to play smarter to use them.
exactly… he needs to do some straight damage. he does so many combos,multiple buttons,more breaker chances,jaggling and still he does very little damage, not enough payback for all these.
i think they are mostly used to open an air combo rather than hit as projectile. maybe you are right, they are strong but i feel a little cheap using them like this and this is what i wrote before about cinder lacks KIness.
i mean the opponent does nothing.
man surely you know him better. for me he really straggles to open and when he does the damage is not that big, plus (like i said before about bombs) i feel some cheap burn the opponent and wait to win. i think it is more fun to go and make the damage,rather than waiting for that to happen.( that is opinions.ok)
about CPU, i just saw it and i wondered why he loses all the matches.
you are right but it shows some things, like in people minds cinder is weak and difficult to handle.
[+] Cinder can now throw Air Pyrobombs even after doing Air Trailblazer, leading to new juggles and setups.
is the opposite possible and if so can cinder activate the bomb after the trailblazer? (all in one jump)
P.S. how many hours left? 
So…you basically don’t want to learn him better and you want simpler damage? sounds like Sabrewulf or Tusk
The bombs do serve both purposes it doesn’t mean it lacks “KIness” it just means it does it differently and you wanna stick to a more simple case.
When you consider how much work it takes to even open up the opponent burn out enders are not really cheap and really once the opponent is lit up they have a 3 options:
1- Combo break which removes the flames
2- Defensive position and hold out till the flames vanish
3- Use differetn attacks instead and depending on the opponent this can vary.
It’s part of the main stategy.
All in all you say “in people’s minds” when really you should only mean yourself because that is all you are doing, speaking for yourself. Even if some folks may agree.
Yes he takes alot of skill to learn but ya know what that’s pretty much doesn’t mean he’s weak it means folks don’t know how to use him the right way and want Cinder to be changed to fit their manner of playstyle instead of actually learning the character.
As one who mains Cinder, and Fulgore, I’ve experienced both cases of play styles that take some adjust to when ya first pick them up, like Fulgore having to stop and charge in te middle of the fight. You have no idea how many matches I lost before I finally got good with him in S1.
If you really care enough about Cinder to get better than do so. Otherwise you can always just pick a different character to suit you more.
Personally I think Cinder is the more comboey-aggresive version of Glacius, you have to play patience like Glacius but you’re more active in your movement where as Glacius is more slow but still does require thinking and focus and good use of your tools.
man it is not my mind that in first 100 in ranked leaderboard there are only 3 cinders and the first of them is in 31st. i understand cinder needs skill, i don’t say to make him sabrewulf. i only say that he should be a little more easier and stronger. that is all.
Well, I’m not gonna lie, I would like his pokes and single hit moves to hurt a little more than they do. Maybe not the level that Thunder or Tusk gets off of single hit pokes and random moves, maybe something decently close to par for other characters. As far as Cinder’s poking tools, they are very underwhelming. His Heavy Kick as a poke really doesn’t hurt that much, not even on counter hit, where most of the cast other than him hit much more decently.
However, Killer Instinct is a very combo driven game and the best damage has and always should come from combos, and that’s even stronger in season 3 given that no white damage cashes out ever without having a breakable moment in the combo. It’s the defining nature of this game.
However, Cinder’s combos are incredibly unique by nature, as his pyrobombs are not considered breakable by the game’s standards (unless I’m mistaken by some rule I don’t know or remember), but like Jago’s fireballs, do count as openers. Using them mid combo is not breakable, so no worries of combo breakers, which is a useful tool because they do add potential damage (white damage) on to the opponent for when you do cash out. Also, the timing for breaking the aerial trailblazers that juggle the opponent are going to get more difficult because air combo breakers now have to be timed correctly or risk lockout, which didn’t exist in season 2.
Between all the different ways to keep your opponent off game using juggle combos instead of the traditional grounded combos, he’s far trickier and harder to break. If you recapture for grounded combo, you take a risk, but it’s also an obvious counter breaker point as well, and the grounded combo state actually gives you modest damage on par with maybe Maya, ARIA, Hisako, Sadira, and definitely better than Omen. If you think Cinder fails to hit hard, Omen’s cash out on combos is much worse, but all his enders tend to build meter too, so there’s the trade off.
Well, it’s not so much that they are meant to make juggle opportunities, though they can do that, but they have many uses. You stick a few to your opponent, and all of a sudden he’s too afraid to do anything other than block. He basically is giving up his offense and allowing you to close distance. However, if he’s too foolish to stop his offense while he’s got them stuck to him, you pop them, and he takes damage, and possible is going to get combo’d based on the situation. At the very least, they build small bits of meter on block, very small, but some. Also, like I said earlier, if they are used mid combo, they can not be combo broken. And if you want to try a very risky offense move, attach a few to him, and then as you try your offense, pop them slightly before or after to hold them down in block so your offensive attempt is a lot safer.
Look, whatever views or preconceptions you hold about cheap or fair, FORGET IT. Playing by some moral code of avoiding cheap tactics is a poor notion of sportsmanship, and holding yourself back by that standard will only cripple your game. The burnout enders can turn Cinder from one of the lower damage characters to near instant KO damage, and keeping yourself from using them because they feel “cheap” is a bad perception and something that can only affect your gameplay for the worse. It’s an ideal most of your opponents online will not share and most likely take advantage of.
A prime example of this is Domi in last year’s KI EVO finals. I don’t know why, but Domi would NEVER combo break, not even attempt it. His opponents eventually picked up on this one weakness in his otherwise spectacular gameplay, and they would lay in with heavy autos and linkers for huge damage free of risk, and those are the easiest to combo break.
As long as you don’t cheat like using something the game was never built for or alter game code or use glitches and broken code to win, then you are good. Anyone who would call you a scrub for using burnout enders or pyrobomb lockdown is mad salty and probably scrubs themselves. You aren’t doing anything unintended. If it’s overpowered, it’s IG’s job to fix it and reign it in, it’s NOT your job to stop using it. As much as I don’t like him, Bill Belichick once said it best, “It’s not my job to stop putting points on the board, it’s their job to try and stop me.”
Good players always use what’s available and don’t hold back, but they don’t cheat. I’ve seen people use turbo buttons in Street Fighter, a very execution heavy game, to win, and that right there is on the bad side. Turbo buttons, macros that play out combos free of execution for you, lag switching, the real cheating stuff is obvious.
Let them think that, it means they underestimate what he’s capable of, and you use that overconfidence against them.
Tusk, Thunder, Sabrewulf, they have a lot of higher damage potential, but they also have limited, basic gameplay styles and options. Because of their greater simplicity and design, they do have the added benefit of better damage. However, you’ll also find that sometimes these characters lack any clear answer to a situation and they are forced to go on the defensive. Thunder definitely has trouble against Fulgore at the moment, and while this isn’t so much the case for season 3, he’ll still have some troubles.
Cinder and Kan Ra are kind of similar, in that you need to think about your setups and options before hand. They aren’t meant to be easy to approach, but they are probably more devastating than any other character in the game when used correctly. Kan Ra players are especially terrifying, and his damage is actually kind of in the same level as Cinder. So I don’t breathe a lot into leaderboards, especially since they are also very prone to exploits to boost ranking.
Perhaps I should take a shot at him sometime. lol
You know, if Shadow Trailblazer could change angles the terrible priority would make sense.
People not using his full “potential (pun intended)” here is all I see. Burn out enders are the key, you can cash out and still have them lit up.
I would agree, though I admit Shadow Trailblazer still leaves much to desire the new stuff he got makes things more fun now.
Yeah, surprisingly the level 1 burnout off a throw really gets the momentum going more than I thought it would.