Analysis: Why We Should Buff More Than Nerf (KI is featured!)

General Discussion
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[quote=“JEFFRON27, post:34, topic:18264”]
I’m sure there’s more to Marvel than just infinite combos.[/QUOTE]

This is true - it is a fighting game, after all. It just so happens that you pretty much have to be able to pull off “infinites” - which, as I and several others have described in detail, are NOT actually infinite - in order to play at an intermediate+ level. The position you and some others take regarding this element is what I think is a danger to the future of fighting games for those of us that have been actually playing them (not just pressing buttons to make the guy do the cool stuff) for a significant portion of time: players want to play (or at least believe that they play) a given game at a significantly higher skill level than they do, but they don’t actually want to put forth that effor - they just want the satisfaction that comes from it. They don’t want to be a “casual,” so the game has to change to adapt to their lethargy or lesser skill capacities. That’s bad.

That is the point I am trying to make.

Well, that and the point that Capcom nerfs entire games/franchises in order to cater to non-FG players and the casual audience in place of their “hardcore” long-term playerbase. Of course, of their “hardcores,” the fanboys and those whose salary depends on it will purchase, play, and espouse the brilliance of this upcoming game. It looks like it’ll play something like TvC/SFxT, so it’ll probably be fun.

I wasn’t saying “It needs infinites to be fun,” - I was saying “3v3 assist-driven infinites are Marvel”.

The milk-and-cookies wasn’t specifically at you, but more at the mentality you are representing - not necessarily that you can’t enjoy a challenge, but you’d rather games not be challenging. I don’t see how that’s a fair stance to take regarding the modern world of fighting games. If you are upset by a particular flavor of challenge or style of long combo, there is always SFV or whatever silliness NRS delivers this season, or any number of other multitudinous games, hell even KI!

I mean, fighting games are a lot more than just combos.

This is a lie propagated by people that press too many buttons and/or can’t block mixups.

Soz 'bout the semi-derail, thread. I get hella triggered thinking about Capcom.

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I dunno man, I see where you’re coming from, but I think you’re making this really clear binary determination that doesn’t necessarily exist.

Some people (myself included) just don’t think Touch of Death is fun, either to watch or to play with/against. I’m admittedly not a “real” Marvel player, but I find the game’s “you got hit, now block this 7 way mixup or you’re dead” just not that enjoyable. I haven’t even watched Marvel outside grand finals for the past 2 years, because I began to find the game insanely repetitive and tedious to watch after a certain point. Every match looks the same - crazy (and fun!) neutral until someone lands a clean(ish) hit, convert into kill, endless incoming ToD mixups until X-factor, (maybe) run it back with crazy X-factor anchor character shenanigans, next game.

I don’t enjoy watching the same Zero or Vergil combos for 3 hours straight, and I certainly didn’t enjoy having to deal with that incoming mixup when I was actively trying to play the game as a new player. I played vanilla Marvel 3 pretty religiously, but I never had any desire whatsoever to purchase Ultimate. The game just wasn’t fun for me online, and I saw no reason to upgrade and continue getting ToD’d whenever I wanted to venture into online. I can appreciate the technical skill required to do those things, but I didn’t find it enjoyable to play against, and after a while I no longer even found it enjoyable to watch.

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Would it help you if consider your 3 character’s life as one, and understand that ‘touch of death’ in marvel means you lost 1/3rd of your life, not 100% of it?

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I’m not sure what you’re referring to? I was mostly venting at the notion that Marvel-style gameplay “is stupid and shouldn’t ever be allowed in FG’s in the first place”. That, to me, is an unfathomably weak-minded and destructive attitude that will hurt gaming, not just FG’s, but competitive gaming in general.

I’m talking about two games over the course of 20 years that ended up defining a franchise w/ precisely that gameplay. It’s not like Marvel is the golden-standard of the genre, it’s not like all of a sudden KI or SF or MK will adopt a touch-of-death focus (even though they all sort of do anyway).

That’s fair. I haven’t watched non-GF Marvel in years either, and even as a Zero player I don’t wanna watch Lightning loops for hours. Tourney-optimal play has a tendency to homogenize itself and become boring after almost a decade - to the dismay of us non-tourney level and casual players, that homogenization does tend to trickle down thanks to the tier-whoring phenomena.

I’m really just arguing that Capcom nerfs entire games to make them “easier” or “more accessible” and that this is not universally good. Sometimes it maybe works, though I am yet to see it produce a more interesting game, and I am sorry to be expecting my favorite franchise to suffer the same evisceration that SFV underwent.

*slams door in a huff *

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Yeah, that’s the part of Morning’s rationale that I actually do agree with - that a Marvel ToD is essentially a 33% damage->incoming mixup punish for getting opened up. I think that’s a pretty apt comparison.

Where I differ is more his (I believe) perspective that if one doesn’t value this framework, then you simply do not enjoy a challenge. There are lots of different challenges baked into FG’s, and not all of them will speak to you. I enjoyed watching it for a long time (before seeing the same combos/conversions over and over and over again kind of killed it for me), but Marvel’s particular brand of play at high level isn’t enjoyable to me as a player, and that kind of just is what it is. I’d like to think that doesn’t automatically mean I don’t enjoy a challenge though - I think the time and energy I’ve devoted to KI shows that I quite like difficult FG interactions, just perhaps of a certain type.

I just don’t think people not liking constant crazy mixups or watching themselves get rocked for 20 seconds straight makes them a detriment to the community. People simply have preferences is all, and that’s something that should be respected and not looked down on. I don’t have a strong perspective on infinites in the new Marvel - but I don’t think lambasting the people who don’t enjoy them is somehow helpful to the scene either.

EDIT: Since I got ninja’d by you @MDMMORNING, I was more referring to the attitude that people who don’t like particular brands of play are automatically detrimental to the scene and community. I also disagree with the idea that “Marvel style gameplay shouldn’t exist anywhere ever”, I just also think it’s wise to recognize which gameplay decisions are meant for each audience, and how those decisions affect market appeal and game longevity. KI’s breaker system turns off a lot of players, but it’s part of the soul of the game and should never be removed. Marvel’s infinites are perhaps along that same vein for that franchise (though ToD as a concept is probably the real salt-generator here). But I don’t think a company thoughtfully touching and tweaking those core concepts is automatically a bad thing (see KI’s successive iterations on breaking).

There are ways to broaden the appeal of a title and address some of your potential audience’s concerns. A good mix of breadth of appeal and competitive depth is essential, and some of the best potential changes will never happen if a developer is afraid to even look at their sacred cows.

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Sorry, I was skimming. <3

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*cracks door, peeks about *

NOOOO I wasn’t trying to be so cut-and-dry about it, in fact sort of the opposite. I guess maybe I misrepresented myself a bit.

This is pretty much what I was trying to say.

Right! We all play KI, so obviously we all enjoy a challenge! It’s a matter of what sort of challenges appeal to us individually, and that’s not always gonna match up, which is cool because there’s a bunch of different games in our genre!

This I agree with, right up until “shouldn’t exist ever” is presented as a preference. I’m gonna look down on it, and I’m gonna rally for people to shun and shame that mentality right back into the cesspool it came from, and belongs in, forever and ever, amen.[quote=“STORM179, post:45, topic:18264”]
referring to the attitude that people who don’t like particular brands of play are automatically detrimental to the scene and community.
[/quote]

I did not mean to imply such things, except as noted above.[quote=“STORM179, post:45, topic:18264”]
recognize which gameplay decisions are meant for each audience, and how those decisions affect market appeal and game longevity.
[/quote]
At the end of day, it’s Capcom/Disney’s gamble and call to make. I think that what (I think) they’re doing will actually have excellent market appeal, and Q1 sales will be awesome. Game longevity? Not so sure. I mean, MvC3 is almost a decade strong w/ it’s EVO mainstage run, so it’s not like ToD-centricity DOESN’T work, y’know? It will interesting to see how the saga of MvC:I unfolds.[quote=“STORM179, post:45, topic:18264”]
There are ways to broaden the appeal of a title and address some of your potential audience’s concerns. A good mix of breadth of appeal and competitive depth is essential, and some of the best potential changes will never happen if a developer is afraid to even look at their sacred cows.
[/quote]

You are a wise man, and speak truths. I just don’t trust Capcom, is all. My worry is that they’ll sell a bajillion copies to people who lose interest by Q3 and the game is forcibly kept alive by the fake eSports initiative that is the CPT. I hope I’m wrong, because Mega Man is back for [almost] this time!

I’m bad at this communication thing. XD English and Internet are hard.

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@MDMMORNING with games like MVC3 I typically have the mentality as a result from bad experience. You talk about how you “actually” play fighting games and assume I don’t on a regular basis? I can enjoy high skill gameplay I just hate being stuck in an infinite combo loop and not being able to engage in the fight. That’s really the only thing I absolutely hated about Marvel and why I dislike it compared to other fighting games.

Just because I don’t like Marvels infinites doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy other fighting games. I just so happen to hate infinite combos and Marvel as a consequence but I don’t dislike other fighters. I don’t view “Infinits” as a challenge. They’re just an annoyance. Above all else those are the only one SPECEFIC mechanic I dislike on a fighting game I simply lost interest in.

Also to be clear Mr.Morning I am not stating them as fact, I’m not trying to raise propaganda I am simply expressing my distaste for a mechanic you just so happen to like. You can disagree with me if you like.

Not wanting Infinits in a fighting game does not mean I want fighting games to be “easy” or some other stuff in the future you seem to fear. I don’t carry the mentaility to any other fighting game.My expeirence with Marvel left a bad taste in my mouth when I played it that’s simply it. Don’t assume the future is doomed because ONE guy hates infinities : p

You and I must have different ideas on what “challenge” means then. I view infinites as unengaging because what exactly can you do while you’re getting caught in the midst of it? nothing really, at least from my experience. You have to sit there and wait till your character dies before you get to play again. Imagine if that happend in shooting games were you die and you have to wait a full minite or two to respawn? Sure a reaosnable amout can let you think about and reflect on your mistake, but take to long and it slows the game down for the person who’s waiting for a chance to get back up.
Infinites feel like long ■■■ respawn times.

Aside from Infinites, I think Marvel Gameplay can have other elements into it, what are some things I see in Marvel? if I can look past the infinites I see alot of air combos, high mobility footsies, switching out between combos and attacks, combination finishers etc. I can see that being something that looks like fun, not one guy pressing the same combo over and over, because why learn anything else?

You view my opinion against Infinites as something against all Marvel gameplay in general, but really is your case viewing that Infinites are the ONLY thing that makes Marvel good?

Also if you want my stance on fighting game difficulty? the games can be as easy or hard as they want, they need a good and clear tutorial system that keeps you from getting lost if your a newbie. If games are easy to learn, they need to be hard to master and reward those dedicated to taking and working with everything they got.

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@MDMMORNING

If you can tell @Jeffron27 about a way to get out of infinities it lessen the tension. Trust me, it’d be alot easier than having just out right making assumptions of the other. You two don’t have to like the others tastes but but at least respect them. But I digress, Just try to minimize busting one another’s chops. Especially over the fact that you guys have different ideas of fun.

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I don’t hate the fact that he likes infinites. If he does, that’s GREAT good on him. I it just seems bothersome to me, that’s bothered by my (albeit, highly negative) opinion about the game.

Then again when I look back at Marvel all I can think about is TronBonne smashing my Shuma, DeadPool, and Spidy around without any sign of a way out. So when Marvel was mentioned I guess I got triggered in went on a crazy tyraid. Looking back on it, the bad memories from it came from a more emotional than rational response. So I likely wasn’t thinking to clearly. But then being put down for hating a paritcular mechanic only drove it off even more. Wasn’t till just now that I realized it.

@MDMMORNING I apologize if you felt bad or was somehow triggered by this. While it’s waay too late for me to ever wanna touch a Marvel game again, who knows, maybe one day I’ll try to see the upside to it. But as of now only thing I recall in my experience was just being forced to sit and wait till I can play again. That was why I hated Marvel so much. Simply put; I HATE periods were I don’t get to play mid-game. After the game, sure it doesn’t bother me because the match would be legit over.

Which if funny seeing as not I’m bothered by triple ultras, but HATE Infinites. Its more or less just where they happen in the game.

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@MDMMORNING and @JEFFRON27

Now if you want my opinion, My idea of a fun is when combatants are at a close grudge match where both players could end up in a K.O. from either side.

However, while I always find those enjoyable, that doesn’t mean I’m going to let my opponent take my life bar down to his amount. I want them to earn that come back. not try to hand it to them, and I don’t expect it the same, nor what it.

Close matches are always the best matches in a fighting game. If thats not your idea of fun that’s okay with me :slight_smile: The fact that we have different ideas just adds to our diversity as individuals.

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Apologies for misinterpreting your intent.

Fair enough. I’d honestly forgotten about the “shouldn’t exist ever” comment, and was more directing my thoughts towards the general sentiment of not liking infinites. I agree that such an encompassing rule about a gameplay concept (just about any gameplay concept really) should be disregarded and/or actively fought against.

As to whether or not Capcom can be trusted, I guess we’ll all find out together. For what it’s worth though, I think any worry that the game will have to be “kept alive” isn’t really rational. If anything, SFV has shown that an altogether mediocre fighter can and will survive and even thrive at the competitive level so long as it has the right license/brand loyalty, and MvC definitely has that pedigree as well. SFV draws huge numbers to every tournament (premier or not), and I’d be surprised if Marvel didn’t do the same. People like what they like, and they like Marvel. They’ll adapt and keep playing it for years as well, until they eventually figure out how to break that one too.

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While it’s true that a “touch of death” combo only kills 1/3rd of your life bar (on average, let’s ignore Phoenix-type characters here), I don’t think it’s fair to say that you can pretend you got hit for 1/3rd of your total life bar when you lose a character.

So many teams in Marvel are based on synergy. If you lose your point character or your assist, you are demonstrably weaker than before… you have lost much more than just 1/3rd of your health. Not to mention, unlike pretty much every other game, after losing a character in Marvel you have a very high chance (in some cases, virtually guaranteed) of losing your next character as well. There is no return to neutral here, like many SF or KI combos. It’s even worse than just “1/3rd of health bar lost”, it’s “1/3rd of health bar lost, team composition either greatly affected or gutted, and now you must take this 5 way mixup to survive”.

Losing a character in Marvel is pretty devastating IMO. If it was just 1/3rd of your health bar, we wouldn’t have that famous gif of Flux quitting on Coach Steve after one grab on his point character.

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An interesting thing to consider. For me it feels like you lost a round in a match as opposed a 1/3 of your life bar.

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This conversation somehow got way too personal way too fast. I wasn’t attacking you personally, a lot of my use of the word “you” was in the general sense.

Infil speaks truths about the outcomes of getting touched in MvC, but that was the game, like it or leave it. I guess I’m just bemoaning the end of an era.

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Yes, not saying it’s better or worse than other forms of games. Just that we have to honestly discuss the ramifications of losing a character in Marvel, it’s worse than 1/3rd of a health bar.

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My stance is on that for sure.

So to be clear, you’re upset because Capcom has, supposedly taken infinities out of MVC:I? Or is there more detail then I thought going on?

Granted I couldn’t care less about Marvel but honestly since the whole raging part has subsided It’s been replaced with only curiosity.

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I don’t know whether or not Capcom has removed the possibility of “infinites” (or ToD’s) from MvC:I - I am sort of assuming they have, but really that’s neither here nor there. What I was on about was the idea that such a style of gameplay “never should have been allowed in FG’s to begin with” (which isn’t actually even your quote, but someone else in the thread) and how such a mentality being catered to is harmful to the integrity of the genre.

Then someone tried to say that “infinites” (my insistence on using bunny quotes is intentional) require no skill, which is demonstrably false. They require pretty great technical skill to execute reliably, and one must be at least good enough at fighting games to be able to convert a hit into the “infinites” at all. Then there is the more mental skill of combo-crafting, wherein people are discovering and developing these combos in the first place - it’s not like there was an in-game or official guide to every “infinite” combo in the game (I’m hella sure we still don’t even know of a bunch, no way have we solved that entire game). So to say their skill-less is pretty much to just ragequit the conversation.

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I see, so basically it’s merely the fear of no infinities rather then whether or not that has been made true.
I doubt that the opinion of someone like that could influence the game. On the other hand though when you look at it from other angles even distaste from something CAN be understandable. The mentality exists because some people have had un-pleasent experiences from it. Should they be catered to? no not really, likely better off finding a fighting game that doesn’t have this mehcanic.

The idea of losing a characrer for a mistake, especially when you may not have anyway to come back from it is where the real issue stems. I assume because Marvel is traditionally a 3v3 game the characters are all balanced to fit into team combinations which means typically a single character cannot do well against a full team of three but this is obviously not taking into the account of the player’s skill. So the more characters you loose the less chance you have of coming back from it. Other fighting games the feature a 1v1 usually you can still come back if you change your habits even though you eat a few combos in the match you have the time to learn your opponents habits and abilities.

From my expeirence infinites don’t give you that luxury, you either need to know your opponent from the moment his character moves or you lose a character. Infil had a good point about that. And even though the video on buffs and nerfs had a good point they’re right about this: Losing can feel sooo much worse than winning in some cases. And when you’re not entirely decent at the game yet and you’re losing your characters left and right it can be rough on the learning experience to which can demotivate people from wanting to get better, especially if being caught in an infinite keeps you from playing the game while your opponent curb stomps you. The draw back si it as a result creates the mentality you’re fighting against, and can also make the game lose players which isn’t doing any better. However considering marvels popularity I’m sure people dropping it isn’t nearly as bad.

Taking that into account; when you’re trying to get better at the game, but the consequence for messing up is extremely high, coupled with the fact that you’re not really playing the game till your character is killed by your opponent, basiclaly you’re just waiting 90% of the time for messing up. This of course is from my experience. Marvel had promise when I first started playing back in the 360 era, but online it just became a “mess up and wait game” so as a result I can say in a more mild sense; it’s not my cup of joe.

That was why I disliked Infinities so much. However on the flipside I can see why people want them so much because supposedly; they’re a test of the persons execution in timing skills and as a plus you get to show off.

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I completely understand your point, and why you dislike them, and you aren’t wrong for feeling that way. All it means is that those two games (and maybe a handful of others throughout the FG kingdom) aren’t for you, and that’s okay. But understand it’s not about the prevalence of “infinites” themselves, but what they represent - an incredibly tense, high-risk & yomi-centric game whose entry level is high, whose learning curve is steep, but whose rewards (the feeling of satisfaction that comes from winning a set) are equally high.

There just aren’t other games that offer such an experience… except maybe Skullgirls, but even that had it’s highest-level redundancy issues * coughFukua/Elizacough *

EDIT: Actually, Divekick and Tekken are in this vein as well. Hell, in Divekick you can literally only be touched once, let’s go!

Why I brought it up in the first place just goes back to that broken record mantra of mine - Capcom nerfs games, nerfs franchises. It’s not about the combos, they are merely symbols for the experience. My worry is that Capcom would do away with that entire experience so as to draw in players such as yourself, who felt as you do about the Marvel experience.

I’m just glad that they’re re-releasing MvC3 as well - but that fact is what suggests to me that MvC:I will be nothing like it.