Analysis: Why We Should Buff More Than Nerf (KI is featured!)


KI season3 feels alot more like an Ultra version of a game cause it has given characters more abilities etc.

Also: infinites; that’s why I don’t play Marvel games, no fun if you get forced to sit there and do nothing. So I avoid all Marvel games as a result.

Personally I don’t mind buffs or nerfs so long as you get something to compensate.

1 Like

I too hate infinites. But there is a market for em.

I guess if you took them away, Marvel wouldn’t be Marvel.

Maybe if I actually learned how to pull one off I would like the game more.

1 Like

If they took infinites away, Marvel would be FUN! so it doesn’t feel like it’s you getting caught doing NOTHING. So yeah I avoid marvel as a result.

I watched it earlier. It is a good video a Core-A puts out a lot of nice stuff. And all things considered, the staff at Iron Galaxy has done a lot to give every character relatively unique move sets and tools.

Can I take this moment to argue for Jago to get back his throw-invulnerability with Wind kick? Pretty please?

Oh check this out

[quote=“JEFFRON27, post:2, topic:18264”]
infinites; that’s why I don’t play Marvel games
[/quote]Same here, I used to play MvC2 daily in the arcade and loved it for years. When it came to Xbox 360 I jumped on it and download the game, tried to play online and was plagued with cheap infinite juggles and it killed the game for me. I literally stopped playing it after that, haven’t played it in years, its amazing that kind of stupidity is allowed in any fighting game frankly.

For me personally I’ve always been a fan of just making the weaker characters stronger to compete not just nerf the good or cheap characters because as the video explained it takes away the fun for players who enjoy their character. However some say this just leads to power creep where games just get out of control because characters have too many tools or damage.

Perfectly example for KI is everyone saying Jago and Fulgore have no weaknesses and are really cheap as a result. Sure they are difficult to play but if I have the choice why not just play these two characters who have every tool imaginable in a fighting game and win instead of playing lower tier characters who have less tools and have to work harder? Instead nerfing jago’s ridiculous health gain to point where a Jago main might not enjoy the character anymore, have about give other characters a similar crazy tools.

I also agree on the note that a perfectly balanced game would indeed be boring. Speaking for myself here I find footsies, neutral game and whiff punishing to be quite boring ironic because that’s what fighting games are mostly about. For me it makes for an uninteresting aspect of entertainment. I like to watch crazy things unfold like long fancy combos, gimmicks, high damage etc. Watching someone do jab jab special move is mind numbing. People like to see players take risks that pay off, like Daigo doing a game winning wake up shoryu and the Twitch chat blowing up of hype. Since Capcom has tried to balance their game by nerfing characters with DPs, now that option for risk is taken away and thus leads to less exciting moments.

Not going to lie here but as much as people hate Gargos, I love fighting him and his minions. I feel they make up for a very interesting style of gameplay that can lead to some fun exchanges. Instead of limiting Garog’s minions or removing them how about give other characters more options to deal with them. Gargos players get to keep their fun mechanic that makes their character Unique but now my character also have some unique tools to deal with your fun stuff as well.


the issue is you cna, as a result kill gameplay.

If thudner get s aprojectile cause Fulgore cna outzone him, why bothe rusing the tools elsewhere?

At the end, it ends up becoming a game where all the characters are just to similar anyway.

KI to me is perfect where it is, balanced enough and still grand enough to be entertaining.

If the vid is taken to consideration, then that begs the question: Just how much is too much? How much can you buff the weaker characters without breaking the game?

Infinites make your neutral and defense hella important; if you lose in neutral, you lose a character. That makes for tense games. Tension is hype! Tension is fun!

Consider this: if you lose in neutral or on defense in most fighting games, you can reasonably expect to lose about 30% (give or take) - in KI, for example, filling a KV gauge and cashing out w/out spending bar will net about 30% if it goes unbroken. An “infinite” combo kills one of three characters, and the incoming character has guess out of a mixup, just like a knockdown or a flipout.

Marvel “infinites” are not really infinite, they’re just 30% combos. The “infinite” aspect is just one character wholly bodying another character, which is fun, but illusory.

I hate to be that guy, but it’s just one of those “not a problem as you get better at the game” things. It’s just how the game works. Unfortunately, it is this “don’t understand it therefore it is cheap and destructive” mentality that Capcom seems to want to cater to. I really hope infinites are still the BnB’s of the Marvel franchise come Marvel:Infinite, but I doubt it - the name will just be around to mock it’s history while Capcom rolls in nostalgia-bucks and fun-money for no good god damned reason, all the while double-dipping in the eSports scene. What kills me is all these Marvel players I keep reading about being like “oh yeah, it’s like the old days, XCOA was 2v2, it’s gonna be great” as if Marvel’s very identity weren’t 3v3:Infinity.

Oh well. That’s just a game that won’t distract me from KI.

Capcom literally nerfs entire games to cater to new and casual players.

@DurtyDee810 Marvel does get exponentially more fun as you learn a couple of loops. It unfolds into more than just praying your opponent doesn’t touch you as you struggle to open them up a dozen times, wondering how the hell someone can fuzzy block so smooth.

What a time to be a KI player!
(or really just a fan of any other studio, or genre)

1 Like

When I popped onto MvC2 and had Iron man juggle my entire lifebar away without me being able to play, I’d call it an infinite combo, regardless of the semantics. lol

The lifebar of one character, or of the entire team? What about the part of the game you played before he touched you? I’m really not trying to just be a troll, but to me (and I can’t be alone in this) the difference isn’t semantic - it’s what makes MvC.

I’m just really scared about what the unfolding of SFV suggests for the revival of one of my favorite franchises. I think it’d be crazy if they did away with infinites to appeal to the crowd that hated the games which defined the franchise. It’d be like if KI used SF4’s combo system.

I guess so long as the XB1/PC port of 3 is alright, they can do whatever. $60 saved is… well, it’s $60 bucks I’m not spending on Capcom. I like not spending $60, $90, $120, and so on and so on, on Capcom.

Whatever the case may be, its unappealing, cheap and killed my desire to play a game that I used to enjoy daily throughout my childhood at the arcade.

Well, there was that firebrand infinite where you would snap out one character, force the second character to eat the unblockable swoop, preform a meter positive combo with meter building assist, snap the character out and bring in another, force them to eat the unblockable swoop, meter positive combo, snap out, unblockable swoop, meter positive combo, snap out, ublockable swoop, meter positive combo, snap out, etc. The only escapes were to pick one of three characters that could escape it with invincible air supers, or hope the firebrand player messed up and accidentally killed one of your characters before snapping them out.

1 Like

Yeah, there is that. Probably a handful of others too. I can’t say if any of them were even intentional. In a roster that enormous, balance is almost a non-thought and it is Capcom we’re talking about. I’ve always found the notion “if it’s all broken, what’s broken?” to be particularly cute. Maybe that’s not acceptable to everyone.

@xCrimsonLegendx That really sucks to hear. I also grew up playing MvC2 on a cabinet, albeit at the arcade on an airbase. The rude awakening I got rediscovering MvC as an adult reinvigorated my love for the franchise and the genre as a sport (what I now know to be “eSports”). I hadn’t imagined the depths of both the strategic rabbitholes nor the feats of execution, the dexterity and fortitude of mind. For me, it was… yeah, invigorating is the word. I am genuinely sorry (sympathetically) to hear that these things instead spoilt it for a fellow fan (and many more like you). That sucks man.

I am just not amused by the prospect of the Marvel game that gets rid of infinite combos being called “Infinite”. I like cheeky, but get bent guy-that-thought-that-one-up. :disappointed:

I’ve seen you and others say this, but it’s just not true. They are both good characters, but they do not have “every tool imaginable in a fighting game”. If you want to play a command grab character or an air superiority character, just to name two examples, Jago and Fulgore are terrible choices. And you are downplaying how much personal preference for playstyle comes into doing well at fighting games. Itazan is going to do more poorly with high tier Ryu than low tier Gief because he is just built to understand grapplers better.

I really think you are oversimplifying this problem. Every single fighting game ever built has a top tier. They all have a “best character.” You could use this “why use X when you can just use best character Y” for all of them. And yet, many hundreds of people play and win with other characters at the highest tournament level in all these games. It’s because the discussion is very multi-faceted.

If I recall correctly, the true meter positive combo forced you to use a team that was so terrible in neutral that if you got hit, you probably deserved to lose the game. I also seem to remember that if you ever landed a hit, you could snap and change the order and scre.w everything up, or if you killed Firebrand, you left the opponent with a weak neutral character with no neutral assist to help them out. So yeah, this was technically possible but I think the team had so many flaws that there was no point in doing it, especially considering other teams could kill a character in one touch and put on a multi-layered mixup effective enough to kill incoming characters and still play good neutral when it didn’t work.

As for actual infinites in MvC3, there are some (like TAC infinites), and these are pretty clearly glitches. I believe Spencer has a legit zipline infinite without TAC that does like 1% per rep and is very hard, as well, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen that in a tournament match.

The difference between legit infinites and touch of death combos is not really that much, anyway. Either they want you to kill a character in one non-scramble touch (as UMvC3 does) or they don’t… and if they do, then you don’t need infinites to do that.

Lots of things are much more awesome in our childhood than they actually end up being when you know how things work in the real world. It’s best to just remember your childhood for what it was, rather than try to project your childhood on what the thing actually is.



IMO a better way to look at it isn’t buffs > nerfs, but rather:

Changes that create more meaningful decisions and more variety of strategies > changes that reduce the number of meaningful decisions and variety of strategies

The team was firebrand / repulsor iron man / harmonizer morrigan. Some weird gimmick teams do work–ryanLV’s and kusoru’s come to mind–but that wasn’t one of them. It was especially bad because the video showing the team was called “game breaking concept” and it turned out to be old, recycled tech bolted onto a near-unplayable team for the sake of showing off how it’s technically possible to wipe out a team off one touch. I think it never made it above a 50% like-to-dislike ratio because so many people realized how dumb it was.



That’s great and all but I don’t wanna sit there doing NOTHING while my opponent just goes ham on me. If that happens I either put the controller down or just leave the game, if I cna’t stay engaged, It’s not fun, no point.

Eating damage is reason enough to work on your defense and neutral game, That hardly makes for any tension, just annoyance.
I don’t have to lose a character to a terrible mechanic, or annoying characters to improve my game. : / most fighting games don’t get that stupid. hence why I’m done with the Marvel series.

The different between what Marvel does and KI does is this:

Flipouts means you can still attack if your opponent effs up there’s a bit of a risk to using those. Just saying a single infinite will spoil the whole match. Not a game I recommend for people if you’re expecting an engaging battle. If you don’t mind getting stuck into a corner with no way out than be my guest.