Storm, you’re welcome to hit me up anytime.
adrunkhalfbreed, don’t worry, I’ll be gone after CEO.
Eh, there are lots of characters that are pretty untouched overall (including top tier Mira and Aria), and including many top 10 contenders like, well… pretty much everybody except Jago, Fulgore, Gargos, and Arbiter (and launch Eyedol in the short term). I don’t necessarily count S2 → S3 transitions (I consider them new games, and the entire cast + system changes to some degree), but since S3 launched there really have been considerably fewer substantial nerfs than it seems.
Core-A Gaming did an excellent video on how nerfs affect the human psyche (basically, a single nerf hurts our brain way more than even many buffs combined will make it happy), check it out for interest’s sake if you haven’t seen it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsC8io4w1sY
It’s unfortunate you’ve lost confidence in the company; I won’t try to make you get it back, since that is not my place. If you want to chat about the game in an honest, objective way, we’re always here, and maybe we can provide perspective on things in a new way for you. It’s just a video game and you should be having fun, first and foremost.
Random question though, because I’m curious… where do you put Fulgore on the tier list? I’d say since S2 launch he’s been more or less cemented permanently at the top (though it took a while for it to come to fruition), and now they’re taking him down a peg or two. Do you think he is outside top 5? Outside top 10? Decidedly middle tier somewhere? Or a true bottom 3 candidate who has more losing matchups than even or winning? You can let me know your opinion and I won’t make any follow-up statement about it unless you indicate you want to talk more about it.
I don’t think any truly smart person thinks this. Nerfs are a mandatory part of patching when you deal with a highly experimental game made by fallible human beings.
And for the record, this is why I dislike the excuse of “no one is playing X character, so they must be terrible”:
Don’t presume to know why players play or don’t play a given character. I talked to Nicky at KIWC (played on 3.6, though 3.7 notes came out that weekend) and he had already decided that KIWC would be the last tournament where he’d main Fulgore. Not because Fulgore was bad, but because he felt the character was becoming boring for him and he had more fun with Mira.
Is Mira a better character than Gore? Yes, in my opinion. But she’s always been a better character than Fulgore since her release IMO, and even if Nicky moved to a higher tier, that doesn’t suddenly make Fulgore not good. The Fulgore player (and hey, Lemon’s pretty friggen good too) thinks the character is still Top 5 in 3.7. The people here aren’t just talking out our asses on this when we try to tell you the character is still strong.
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Just adding to what storm said…I also hate the whole go play the character argument. If someone doesn’t like the characters play style it doesn’t matter how good they are.
You’re right and I’m sorry if I’ve wasted anyone’s time here, I’m frustrated and venting.
Anyway, to answer your question I honestly don’t know where I’d currently place him on a tier list. His meter mechanic makes him almost too different to accurately compare. That said, against weak opponents he still looks as strong as ever, but against strong, pressure heavy opponents he really seems to buckle. It’s easy to say “meter doesn’t matter much” when you play a character that builds meter normally. In my opinion, other characters getting meter for blocking well (or even getting hit) was always offset for fulgore by the fact that you would eventually get meter when instinct was available. Now there is no light at the end of the heavy pressure tunnel.
Not that my opinion means much, but I’d have been happier with other nerfs, things along the lines of the prior s3 patches rather than to wreck his instinct mode. The instinct change is really truly what did me in. Though my words have been much harsher, I don’t think any of the fulgore players here are happy with his current instinct. Pip cancelling isn’t something that fulgore players go nuts with, it’s usually use a pip here, use two there etc. Having infinite “free” pip cancels doesn’t really help him, especially since they still reduce your reactor speed.
Also, from a developer standpoint, it looks sloppy as hell. The patch notes state free pip cancelling during instinct but this isn’t really true. You still have to have a pip, it just doesn’t burn it. Though unlikely, if you don’t have a pip you cannot pip cancel. A more realistic scenario would be pip cancelling into a shadow move. It won’t work unless you have 5 pips - one for the cancel and 4 for the shadow itself. Granted, it won’t burn the fifth, but it won’t work without it. Also, the notes say reactor speed wont be slowed for using energy moves and pip cancels during instinct, but it is! Maybe I’m reading too much into things but it genuinely feels like they just came up with this change really quickly and without much thought.
Anyway, thanks for being patient with me, I know I’ve been a pain. It’s just very frustrating to fall out of love with your favorite game over the last 3.5 years.
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Pulling out what I said about it earlier this year:
For my money, making it less free for fulgore to get to max meter and making his pressure a little less nuts definitely creates more meaningful decisions for him. The unfortunate side effect is…well, fulgore was one of the easier characters to play, a decent option for people not at the highest levels of play to pick. Giving him more meaningful decisions with his unique systems means there’s less margin for error in playing him, which makes him less accessible.
THAT BEING SAID…
There are some things I can agree didn’t work out as well as they could have. Infinite pip cancels was a much bigger deal with cancels from laser to fireball, as that was both a very strong pressure option and a good way to get mixups started from range. As it is I now see the main benefit of instinct mostly being the ability to charge pips–getting 2-3 pips from ending a combo or slipping one in during zoning is still pretty good–which is maybe less exciting than what it did before. It also doesn’t make much sense for his fireball/laser damage to be reduced now, I think.
[quote=“Paramisery, post:50, topic:20786, full:true”] Also, the notes say reactor speed wont be slowed for using energy moves and pip cancels during instinct, but it is!
[/quote]
?
“No longer prevents you from losing spin speed as you normally would when using energy systems or getting knocked down.”
I think you may have misread this.
Perhaps you’ve misread me. I fully acknowledge that the patch notes state that Fulgore doesn’t lose spin speed for using energy or getting knocked down while in instinct.
Here’s a video of Fulgore losing spin speed for using energy in instinct mode.
“No longer prevents you from losing spin speed as you normally would when using energy systems or getting knocked down.”
It’s saying you will lose spin speed as normal in instinct.
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Oh, well, then I do apologize, I guess I did misread that. Well, that gives me even less faith in their decision making if that’s intentional…
Sorry, you’re right, I’ve been reading it wrong the whole time.
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Well, if Fulgore got unlimited pip cancels and could not lower spin speed during instinct, that sounds pretty extreme. It has to be either one or the other. You might prefer the max spin speed but he can’t have both.
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aww i was actually hoping that would be the buff they go from here if they chose to do so
I beg to differ, though it would strengthen his instinct by not punishing the use of said pip cancels it’s not helping him gain any meter outside of the way he normally would either. As it stands now instinct feels more like a gamble on whether or not you choose to utilize pip cancels for the cost of meter gain or just do what you usually do and have nothing change despite maybe throwing a pip charge here and there. Besides, his instinct doesn’t last terribly long either so it’s not as if he would gain max spin speed instantaneously like he used to either. Feel free to shoot this down however you wish but that’s how I feel about it at least.
[quote=“DEClimax, post:51, topic:20786”]
The unfortunate side effect is…well, fulgore was one of the easier characters to play, a decent option for people not at the highest levels of play to pick.[/quote]
If you exclude half of the cast, maybe 
Anyway, I ran a set yesterday against a Jago. During a match, I won the first round by outzoning him, without being hit a single time. Guess how many pips I had at the end of the round: three 
Sure, I had heavily relied on lasers and bolts, but didn’t pip-cancel but a couple times either…
So it’s not entirely true that Fulgore just needs to play well and meter will come, rather “rush people down like crazy and you’ll earn meter quickly, though not as quickly as the other characters”.
Not a huge deal, but worth making it clear to people claiming he still earns too much meter and/or need other nerfs.
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I don’t know about that, pip cancelling for free is definitely not as oppressive as sadira, orchid, rash, or even aria’s instinct pressure, and they’re still building meter the whole time. I don’t see how fulgore losing spin speed is so necessary for this to not be too strong. Keep in mind, I’m not suggesting he builds it, just don’t reduce it for using energy. Especially now that you can’t loop eye laser into fireballs. If you actually want to use shadow moves/counters you pretty much have to NOT use instinct. And to be perfectly honest, a clutch shadow blade dash or shadow teleport, or even a shadow counter means a lot more to me than being able to briefly zone harder once we’ve reached a stage in the game where my opponent has meter (since I don’t have this option available until after they’ve beat me up a bit and gained some) to bypass said laser and fireball pressure.
Its really pretty bad design to say that this character has to choose between instinct or shadow, because he can’t have both anymore. Can you even think of another character where using instinct potentially screws them over later in the game? Should webs, cats, and bikes cost small amounts of meter? If you support this, but not that, why?
Gotta agree with the people that think his instinct is pretty meh right now. Unlimited pip cancels was scary when he still built meter, had crazy pip cancel strings, and it didn’t affect his spin speed. Then they took all three of those things away so whats the point now?
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[quote=“DarthStilnox, post:58, topic:20786, full:true”]
No, not really. Fulgore was not especially difficult prior to having to actually care about his meter. His tools aren’t very complex and he had no exploitable weakness because his access to meter was still plentiful. Even with the nerfs he still has great neutral control, unreactable 50/50 okizeme, strong pressure, good normals, and rock solid defense. IMO fulgore is the most well-rounded character in the game–he can fight comfortably at any distance, in basically any scenario.
shrug
It’s still possible to build meter while zoning in instinct. You can use pip cancels to create zoning patterns that give you opportunities to pip charge. You can also get 2-3 pips from a combo depending on the ender you use, and fulgore can go from fullscreen to pressuring easily with free fireball > teleport cancel. It’s less exciting than what he had before but it’s not like he flat out can’t use it.
If going for hard knockdown enders and manually charging pips is how we’re supposed to use his instinct then they’d be better off ditching the whole reactor thing and just reverting him back to how his meter worked in season 1…
That’s a massively reductive reading of what Climax posted. I think part of the problem is your trying to reduce a very complex and nuanced instinct into 2-3 rather simple points, namely “pop instinct, get meter” and “pop instinct, find easiest way to pip charge”.
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fulgore is still a ■■■■■■■■■■■■ and always will be. his instinct has fallen off for sure, he has other flaws as well that i dont care to mention since its been discussed. however, as @STORM179 says we have to work with what we’re given and adapt/overcome. if thats gonna happen, complaint dept is closed ■■■■■■■.
im not the best fulgore player by any stretch, im held back by my execution, lack of seat time due to RL responsibilities, but i dont let that or his weaknesses get in the way of my confidence in fulgore. you cannot work around his flaws if youre fighting yourself, fighting your views of fulgores current state and fighting your opponent. you cant win or grow that way at all.
MBABanemobius, what’s so nuanced about his instinct? It doesn’t let him do anything he couldn’t already do if he had meter for it, other than pip charge, which he could do at any time in s1.
R1stormrider, first of all, I don’t know how you could say he, or any character for that matter, will always be good, you literally have no idea what changes will be made each patch. Did anyone have any idea that spinal was going to be completely redesigned after season 2? Anyway, I’m glad you still like the character, but there’s no way to grow when each patch takes away from what you could do. To use your own analogy of growth, if progress is like a plant growing, each one of these patches is like the gardner coming by and trimming a piece off. The 3.7 patch was a huge piece in my opinion. How much growth can you make when you keep getting trimmed down? From the opinions of people who don’t play the character, I fully expect him to be nerfed again in 3.8.