3.8 suggested changes for Fulgore

patch
rebalance
fulgore
Tags: #<Tag:0x00007f74b5b459c0> #<Tag:0x00007f74b5b45538> #<Tag:0x00007f74b5b450d8>
#41

SAY IT AGAIN FOR THE PPL IN THE BACK!!

#42

Then play fulgore, according to everyone who doesn’t play him, he’s in a really good place. Just be ready to give up the ability to gain meter while blocking, and give up about half your damage.

Also, how in the hell do you think Jago and Orchid suffer from the same problems? In addition to having meter less DP, they also build meter for playing defense, so they can shadow counter or use a shadow move, PLUS they both have useful instinct modes! On top of that they do like 1.5x the damage that fulgore does.

By “in a good place now,” do you mean, “because nobody plays the ■■■■■■■ character anymore and I like that?”

On a serious note, Infilament, I honestly don’t see why I’d want to learn a new character with how Iron Galaxy has been balancing the game since season 3. I’ve spent a ton of time and effort going out to my locals bringing a set up, teaching people the mechanics of the game, trying to get it to be played, and basically nobody gives a ■■■■. There’s no local scene, and the character that I’ve loved since s1 (since 1994 really) is (I’ll be fair and say “in my opinion”) a completely unfun piece of garbage that buckles under pressure, and is in no way, shape, or form the character that I fell in love with. He seriously built meter more easily in s1 than now. So am I honestly supposed to reinvest time learning a new character that (if they’re good) will be nerfed right into the ■■■■■■■ ground as multiple characters already have been before? I no longer trust the company, and everyone else who hasn’t had their character significantly changed is more than willing to chime in about how “fair” this is. I also love how everyone seems to say that balancing should be done through buffs only, but then all jump on the bandwagon when a character they don’t like/don’t play gets hammered.

I wish I could say I don’t care anymore, but the fact that I’m still responding to these means I do. I’ve already signed up for CEO and got my plane ticket, I don’t see the point in learning a new character now, I’ll just get my ■■■ kicked and retire.

#43

Yes if im being honest kinda.Its a bad matchup for me. When i meet a good zoning fulgore he makes life hard.

#44

Well, shadow blade dash isn’t invincible, so while it’ll (maybe) clear minions if Gargos gives you space, it doesn’t tend to be useful if he wants to apply pressure - you’ll just get stuffed queueing up the shadow.

As to the other stuff, I’d love to run an experiment with you after I get back into the country. I’ll play Jago or Orchid but not use any meter, you run Fulgore. Or heck, I could run Fulgore as well (don’t expect greatness :joy:). Not trying to prove a point, just really curious how you’re managing the neutral and pressure games in general. I’ve said before that I genuinely think you’re missing some steps with the character, but I’d like to actually play you and see how exactly you respond to pressure.

#45

Dude there’s nothing left to tell you. You have had multiple pros and mister analysis himself Infilament try and give you options, reasoning, constructive criticism that you asked for after posting a video where you get worked for a number of reasons yet you still cry that you lose cause you have no meter. Watching that video imo even with unlimited meter you would of still got stomped. You were pushing so many random buttons along with not holding block. After a couple hail Mary shadow blade dashes then what. You dropped combos right off the bat along with random down fierce anti airs with gargos on the other side of you. As far as others who play other characters that are so “rich” with meter and don’t know your"struggle". You have posted in multiple threads your gripe with the nerfs and had multiple fulgore mains try and tell you it’s not all doom and gloom and you refuse to listen or consider anything. But I suppose we need to look no father than you gamer tag. Misery! And as the saying goes misery loves company and you won’t be satisfied until you have a whole thread of people bitching about the game and “your” “broken, useless, unplayable and unfun” character who you have also referred to as op. You make no sense. Go away and play another game or switch characters like others have suggested. I don’t care either way. Stop wasting people’s time. There are plenty of people and questions that storm, Infilament, and others can be helping instead of wasting time beating there heads against a wall trying to help a combative, non receptive ■■■ hat like you. Cheers troll! Cause at this point that’s all your doing with your nonsensical posts.

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#46

Storm, you’re welcome to hit me up anytime.

adrunkhalfbreed, don’t worry, I’ll be gone after CEO.

#47

Eh, there are lots of characters that are pretty untouched overall (including top tier Mira and Aria), and including many top 10 contenders like, well… pretty much everybody except Jago, Fulgore, Gargos, and Arbiter (and launch Eyedol in the short term). I don’t necessarily count S2 -> S3 transitions (I consider them new games, and the entire cast + system changes to some degree), but since S3 launched there really have been considerably fewer substantial nerfs than it seems.

Core-A Gaming did an excellent video on how nerfs affect the human psyche (basically, a single nerf hurts our brain way more than even many buffs combined will make it happy), check it out for interest’s sake if you haven’t seen it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsC8io4w1sY

It’s unfortunate you’ve lost confidence in the company; I won’t try to make you get it back, since that is not my place. If you want to chat about the game in an honest, objective way, we’re always here, and maybe we can provide perspective on things in a new way for you. It’s just a video game and you should be having fun, first and foremost.

Random question though, because I’m curious… where do you put Fulgore on the tier list? I’d say since S2 launch he’s been more or less cemented permanently at the top (though it took a while for it to come to fruition), and now they’re taking him down a peg or two. Do you think he is outside top 5? Outside top 10? Decidedly middle tier somewhere? Or a true bottom 3 candidate who has more losing matchups than even or winning? You can let me know your opinion and I won’t make any follow-up statement about it unless you indicate you want to talk more about it.

I don’t think any truly smart person thinks this. Nerfs are a mandatory part of patching when you deal with a highly experimental game made by fallible human beings.

#48

And for the record, this is why I dislike the excuse of “no one is playing X character, so they must be terrible”:

Don’t presume to know why players play or don’t play a given character. I talked to Nicky at KIWC (played on 3.6, though 3.7 notes came out that weekend) and he had already decided that KIWC would be the last tournament where he’d main Fulgore. Not because Fulgore was bad, but because he felt the character was becoming boring for him and he had more fun with Mira.

Is Mira a better character than Gore? Yes, in my opinion. But she’s always been a better character than Fulgore since her release IMO, and even if Nicky moved to a higher tier, that doesn’t suddenly make Fulgore not good. The Fulgore player (and hey, Lemon’s pretty friggen good too) thinks the character is still Top 5 in 3.7. The people here aren’t just talking out our asses on this when we try to tell you the character is still strong.

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#49

Just adding to what storm said…I also hate the whole go play the character argument. If someone doesn’t like the characters play style it doesn’t matter how good they are.

#50

You’re right and I’m sorry if I’ve wasted anyone’s time here, I’m frustrated and venting.

Anyway, to answer your question I honestly don’t know where I’d currently place him on a tier list. His meter mechanic makes him almost too different to accurately compare. That said, against weak opponents he still looks as strong as ever, but against strong, pressure heavy opponents he really seems to buckle. It’s easy to say “meter doesn’t matter much” when you play a character that builds meter normally. In my opinion, other characters getting meter for blocking well (or even getting hit) was always offset for fulgore by the fact that you would eventually get meter when instinct was available. Now there is no light at the end of the heavy pressure tunnel.

Not that my opinion means much, but I’d have been happier with other nerfs, things along the lines of the prior s3 patches rather than to wreck his instinct mode. The instinct change is really truly what did me in. Though my words have been much harsher, I don’t think any of the fulgore players here are happy with his current instinct. Pip cancelling isn’t something that fulgore players go nuts with, it’s usually use a pip here, use two there etc. Having infinite “free” pip cancels doesn’t really help him, especially since they still reduce your reactor speed.

Also, from a developer standpoint, it looks sloppy as hell. The patch notes state free pip cancelling during instinct but this isn’t really true. You still have to have a pip, it just doesn’t burn it. Though unlikely, if you don’t have a pip you cannot pip cancel. A more realistic scenario would be pip cancelling into a shadow move. It won’t work unless you have 5 pips - one for the cancel and 4 for the shadow itself. Granted, it won’t burn the fifth, but it won’t work without it. Also, the notes say reactor speed wont be slowed for using energy moves and pip cancels during instinct, but it is! Maybe I’m reading too much into things but it genuinely feels like they just came up with this change really quickly and without much thought.

Anyway, thanks for being patient with me, I know I’ve been a pain. It’s just very frustrating to fall out of love with your favorite game over the last 3.5 years.

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#51

Pulling out what I said about it earlier this year:

For my money, making it less free for fulgore to get to max meter and making his pressure a little less nuts definitely creates more meaningful decisions for him. The unfortunate side effect is…well, fulgore was one of the easier characters to play, a decent option for people not at the highest levels of play to pick. Giving him more meaningful decisions with his unique systems means there’s less margin for error in playing him, which makes him less accessible.

THAT BEING SAID…

There are some things I can agree didn’t work out as well as they could have. Infinite pip cancels was a much bigger deal with cancels from laser to fireball, as that was both a very strong pressure option and a good way to get mixups started from range. As it is I now see the main benefit of instinct mostly being the ability to charge pips–getting 2-3 pips from ending a combo or slipping one in during zoning is still pretty good–which is maybe less exciting than what it did before. It also doesn’t make much sense for his fireball/laser damage to be reduced now, I think.

[quote=“Paramisery, post:50, topic:20786, full:true”] Also, the notes say reactor speed wont be slowed for using energy moves and pip cancels during instinct, but it is!
[/quote]

?

“No longer prevents you from losing spin speed as you normally would when using energy systems or getting knocked down.”

I think you may have misread this.

#52

Perhaps you’ve misread me. I fully acknowledge that the patch notes state that Fulgore doesn’t lose spin speed for using energy or getting knocked down while in instinct.

Here’s a video of Fulgore losing spin speed for using energy in instinct mode.

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AkccZX6sxdtAhu17775hcvCPLr23WQ

#53

No longer prevents you from losing spin speed as you normally would when using energy systems or getting knocked down.”

It’s saying you will lose spin speed as normal in instinct.

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#54

Oh, well, then I do apologize, I guess I did misread that. Well, that gives me even less faith in their decision making if that’s intentional…

Sorry, you’re right, I’ve been reading it wrong the whole time.

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#55

Well, if Fulgore got unlimited pip cancels and could not lower spin speed during instinct, that sounds pretty extreme. It has to be either one or the other. You might prefer the max spin speed but he can’t have both.

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#56

aww i was actually hoping that would be the buff they go from here if they chose to do so

#57

I beg to differ, though it would strengthen his instinct by not punishing the use of said pip cancels it’s not helping him gain any meter outside of the way he normally would either. As it stands now instinct feels more like a gamble on whether or not you choose to utilize pip cancels for the cost of meter gain or just do what you usually do and have nothing change despite maybe throwing a pip charge here and there. Besides, his instinct doesn’t last terribly long either so it’s not as if he would gain max spin speed instantaneously like he used to either. Feel free to shoot this down however you wish but that’s how I feel about it at least.

#58

[quote=“DEClimax, post:51, topic:20786”]
The unfortunate side effect is…well, fulgore was one of the easier characters to play, a decent option for people not at the highest levels of play to pick.[/quote]

If you exclude half of the cast, maybe :slight_smile:

Anyway, I ran a set yesterday against a Jago. During a match, I won the first round by outzoning him, without being hit a single time. Guess how many pips I had at the end of the round: three :neutral_face:
Sure, I had heavily relied on lasers and bolts, but didn’t pip-cancel but a couple times either…

So it’s not entirely true that Fulgore just needs to play well and meter will come, rather “rush people down like crazy and you’ll earn meter quickly, though not as quickly as the other characters”.
Not a huge deal, but worth making it clear to people claiming he still earns too much meter and/or need other nerfs.

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#59

I don’t know about that, pip cancelling for free is definitely not as oppressive as sadira, orchid, rash, or even aria’s instinct pressure, and they’re still building meter the whole time. I don’t see how fulgore losing spin speed is so necessary for this to not be too strong. Keep in mind, I’m not suggesting he builds it, just don’t reduce it for using energy. Especially now that you can’t loop eye laser into fireballs. If you actually want to use shadow moves/counters you pretty much have to NOT use instinct. And to be perfectly honest, a clutch shadow blade dash or shadow teleport, or even a shadow counter means a lot more to me than being able to briefly zone harder once we’ve reached a stage in the game where my opponent has meter (since I don’t have this option available until after they’ve beat me up a bit and gained some) to bypass said laser and fireball pressure.

Its really pretty bad design to say that this character has to choose between instinct or shadow, because he can’t have both anymore. Can you even think of another character where using instinct potentially screws them over later in the game? Should webs, cats, and bikes cost small amounts of meter? If you support this, but not that, why?

#60

Gotta agree with the people that think his instinct is pretty meh right now. Unlimited pip cancels was scary when he still built meter, had crazy pip cancel strings, and it didn’t affect his spin speed. Then they took all three of those things away so whats the point now?

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