hmm. I usually pop instinct once I’ve conditioned my opponent to back the F off me cause his medium lazer blows up just about every forward moving special. once they expect heavy lazers and bolts. pop instinct and manual charge. then go back in a blow them up for meter spin. fulgores hit and run tactics are pretty solid. I always have meter.
I hope there is a point in this game’s life that people will learn to play around their disadvantages as a character instead of crying out for Buffs when the character might not need them, like people who played fighting games back then without developer involvement with the community and patches until the next release.
(Not saying that this discussion is bad, but we have a lot of these.)
-shrug- Well, I don’t think the discussion is particularly good either. It’s the latest in a series of threads where many (but not all) of the contributors have largely thrown up their hands and decided their character is bad and uniquely disadvantaged, and no amount of explanation or suggestions can disabuse them of the notion. In fact, such an attempt seems to only make them mad and generate self-pity and snark. There’s no possibility for growth with that mindset.
But because I like beating my head against walls, a few thoughts.
- if Jago is getting 10 meters a game, you are effing up. If any character is getting 10 full stocks of meter a game in fact, to include Omen, you are probably effing up. Average shadow stocks per game tends toward 4-7, and in my experience Fulgore usually winds up with 2-3 full stocks generated unless he gets absolutely mauled the entire fight.
- pip cancels can be used to cancel lasers into blade dash. This is one of the better continuing pressure options Fulgore has, because blade dash is always safe, can be plus, and Gore can always forcibly take his turn back after one.
- get it out of your mind that Fulgore has bad buttons. He actually has some very good ones, including a cr.MK that reaches almost as far as Hisako’s while being slightly plus on block (can’t go to the lab to verify exact frames, but please feel free to take a look and report back the actual values here).
At base, I think a lot of Fulgore players need to just sit back a bit and take stock about how their disparate issues work when taken together. If DP’s are being baited, then your opponent is giving up his turn. If you’re being challenged after med laser, then your opponent is leaving himself open to pip canceled blade dash when you’re judicious about your spacing. What does it really mean to be -2 to -4 in front of your opponent given Gore’s toolset? Can you press advantage because of the threat of DP? Can you simply backdash to regain a more favorable neutral position? How can you subvert mixup expectations with Fulgore’s fantastic throw range, and what effect does that have on building pips?
Fulgore has gaps. He also has tools to largely paper over those gaps. Be thoughtful and intentional about trying to adjust your playstyle to do so.
+2 on block and hit according to attack data
Thanks Lemon. Would you mind listing the full attack data? [x/y/z]
Funnily enough you can set up frame traps by doing 2 of these in a row, since its +2 and priority will make you beat lights. Definitely a good tool
edit: just remember to add this, LK can combo into any light on hit (doesn’t have to be counter hit). I usually do a crouch jab after and the timing’s pretty tight, but I think its useful as a hit confirm/frame trap that doesn’t slow down spin
Thanks again. So this is kind of my point - Fulgore has a 7 frame low with good range that frame traps into itself, but how often do we see Gore players using this tool? They cancel it into negative on block specials because that’s what they’re used to doing, when being a bit more thoughtful about when and where to place it could lead to interesting frame traps, resets, and openings. And cr.MK isn’t the only solid button in the character’s toolbox.
Having meter is nice to be sure (especially given the passive buffs Fulgore gets from having it), but it isn’t everything, and Gore does have ways to play that increase his likelihood of having pips when he needs them. Players need to learn to work around the character’s gaps, instead of just reflexively complaining about what they don’t have.
Fulgore’s meterless close pressure is pretty damn excellent. His close MP and MK buttons are +1, LK is +2 and has immense reach for a light button and links into itself on counterhit, crMK is +2 on block, axis smash basically is double roundhouse, his throw range is stupid good, medium laser is even on block and can be used to confirm hits at a range where Jago has to either late-cancel a heavy button or risk having medium wind kick punished on block. Jago’s best pressure strings involve a lot of frame trapping and confirming counterhits with normal links and not much laser sword at all, and Fulgore can do more-or-less the same stuff.
Maybe you should just stick to Jago instead? Why are you so attached to Fulgore if you think he seriously struggles, and you don’t seem to think Jago has any serious drawbacks? I mean I think that Jago has no serious zoning game and struggles to exert any serious influence over the space outside of the range of his heavy buttons, but you seem totally oblivious to that, so maybe Jago plays more to your strengths and has fewer glaring weaknesses that upset your playstyle?
Nobody is saying that playing Fulgore is akin to having a win button in front of you. Fulgore is a hard character to play well, let alone master. Fulgore gets strong pressure buttons and a meterless DP and a safe wind kick and legitimate zoning tools and high mobility and potent teleport vortex nonsense, and all that ■■■■ is hard to leverage in concert. That just means Fulgore is meant for the kind of player who is going to leverage all of that under harsh meter constraints, and maybe isn’t meant for you. At any rate, with the way you’re talking about all this, you probably don’t have the attitude to be a Fulgore player.
Jago can do this if he wants to waste a bar --point-blank shadow fireball is unsafe on block.
This is by no means a call for buffs, rather an answer to a general crying out for Fulgore nerfs which endures even now.
I’m sorry I wasn’t able to pass the right message (my fault), but the “buffs” I suggested are conditional to an hypothetic blade dash nerf (which was widely requested).
I would really be happy to leave things as they are, being able to adapt to this new version of my favourite character since KI for Game Boy came out and Blade Dash was -40 on block (no joke).
It was right to nerf Fulgore, I never said a single word against it, but since the rants continue, I decided to step up.
For these reasons I do agree with your point, but maybe you should address it where there is real toxicity in this regard.
Fulgore has been nerfed in almost all of the season 3 patches, and I never once complained until 3.7. I rarely, if ever, posted on here prior to that. The instinct mode really did ruin the character. After losing a ton of damage and the spin speed nerfs, he’s now in a position where if you’re winning you get the meter you don’t really need because you’re winning, but if you’re losing you’re just s**t out of luck, your situation will never turn around. Even instinct mode isn’t a comeback mechanic anymore. I mean, wow, free pip cancels that still wreck my spin speed and projectiles that have had their damage nerfed, and you can no longer cancel fireballs from laser (granted, I fully understand WHY they took that away after implementing the instinct change, but its just one more reason why they SHOULDN’T have changed it). Hell, instinct mode is sort of broken in the fact that (however unlikely) if you don’t have a single pip you CANNOT pip cancel. The character is downright stupid right now, and there’s a reason why nobody plays him.
Small nerfs to strong characters may be justified, but giant fundamental changes is what gets people to drop the game. I don’t even know that I’d hate the instinct change if not for every prior nerf, but with them all added up, this is definitely the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Hey dude ive been watching this from afar. Your grievances are noted but as a thunder who has fought against many a good fulgore…he has a dp. People have said this before it does not solve the all the issues you want it to but fulgore has many options at all times. He is a character that very rarely doesnt have an option even if the option is just dp. Do you know how frustrating it is to block a fulgore dp then just have to hold eye lasers and go back to neutral. It hurts your soul. Limiting his ability to do that and weakining his defense gives him a weakness people can exploit. Every character needs a weakness and for the most part they all have one. Fulgores is that hey if I am losing its kinda hard to stop the rape train. Be glad your not spinal bone man gets so sad when he gets pressured.
Should I even respond since “my grievances have been noted?” DP isn’t the be all end all, especially in a game as crazy as KI. That’s almost like saying Ryu should be amazing in UMVC3 because he, too, has a DP. It doesn’t correlate the same way as it does with a street fighter. Now, I’m by no means saying DP is bad, but if you’re being heavily pressured its a giant risk with honestly very little reward.
Try to visualize this, you’re being heavily pressured, you’re taking chip damage AND losing spin speed, you have virtually no meter. You can risk a DP, if you’re wrong, you’re going to get blown up, and if you’re right, you get 8% damage, no follow up or recapture and a completely negligible amount of spin speed that will disappear if you stand still, use a single fireball/laser, or just block. Watch the match I posted in the “Dealing with Pressure” thread and please enlighten me as to how having a DP would even help in that match up.
And yes, I get that characters should have weaknesses, but the instinct mode change broke his ability to come back from pressure. If you start out losing you almost may as well just quit, you don’t have meter to look forward to building. I genuinely do feel like people who play other characters don’t really understand this. As a Thunder player, you can only be pressured for so long before you inherently build a bar of meter which you can use for invincible sammamish into stomp for juggle or knee for reset and then start your pressure. Fulgore used to be able to look forward to building instinct, so he could get meter to start pressure, but now you just have to sit there and continue to block/guess a dp with zero follow up and a heavily skewed risk/reward.
I also think its interesting you mention spinal. Yes, he got ruined, there’s no doubt about that. But people are still successful with the character. There were two spinal players in the last tournament’s top 8, (bass and raven is raw) yet there were exactly zero Fulgore players.
While that is a certainly a way to look at it, I’d submit that it’s a bit of a flawed way to approach the question. Chip damage in KI is negligible for most interactions; holding chip damage is the least of your concerns while blocking. In a game with offense as strong as KI, blocking forever is simply not an option, for any character. You will eventually get opened up. Best case you get opened up by a cr.LK confirm or something that will scale heavily, middle case you get thrown for 10% into another HKD setup, worst case you eat a fierce overhead->combo or something similarly damaging. Bottom line, you’re going to get blown up anyway. Is the hypothetical damage that you’re going to eat on a DP punish (where players still often don’t do max damage punishes, and where you can use light DP to dramatically up the difficultly of landing such) really of the greatest consequence? This isn’t SFV, where whiffing a DP guarantees a 50% punish and a corner carry that likely kills you. You have a pretty decent margin for error on this actually.
Similarly, the 8% damage (less if you opt to go for the harder to punish light DP) isn’t really the point here. You don’t need a recap or extra spin speed or a shot at oki for a DP to be worth it - you have stopped an active attempt at pressure by your opponent and reset the game to neutral, where Fulgore shines even without a single pip. You’ve also, whether the reversal hit or not, laid down an important marker about what kinds of pressure you will and will not allow. That is an incredibly valuable thing to establish, and allows you in the future to take your turns back via less dramatic means.
I watched your match in the “Dealing with Pressure” thread. You are correct that your DP wasn’t going to be terribly useful in most of the situations you found yourself in there. The thing is, having meter wouldn’t have been terribly useful to you either in those instances. Gargos double minion pressure negates shadow counters even more baldly than it ignores invincible reversals, and the same is true of quite a lot of the nastier forms of pressure in this game. Is it better to have meter to shadow counter than not, sure! But shadow counters are just as baitable as DP’s, and lose to additional pressure options and strings as well.
And pet peeve, but please stop saying “no one plays this character/he’s not in Top 8” to justify your perspective on this. Season 2 Fulgore was godlike, and yet you could still count on 1 finger (2 if you want to count Rico, who places Top 8 with any character he plays and who has never run Fulgore consistently) the number of Fulgore’s who made Top 8 at tournaments in S2. Take Nicky out of the picture and Fulgore wouldn’t have made even a single Top 8 out of the entirety of Season 3, even though the character was certainly still strong (by your own admission) up to at least 3.7. I think Aria is Top 2 in the game, but if Sleep didn’t enter, guess what - Aria ain’t making Top 8. Top 8 showings isn’t a great proxy for how good a character is, particularly if the character is difficult to play.
Also, to add to Storm’s DP discussion, the fact that Fulgore can shadow eye laser cancel DP means he gets away with stuff a bit more often. You don’t even have to have meter always… KI is fast enough that people probably aren’t counting Fulgore’s pips all that often. So between using light and heavy DP interchangeably and sometimes canceling into shadow eye laser, I think punishes on Fulgore’s DPs are probably on the weaker side. Probably only Cinder gets away with more DPs I think.
(And, of course, everything Storm said about taking back neutral and changing your opponent’s mentality during future pressure is correct. You don’t need a recapture to make DPs worth it, instead Fulgore lands right next to you and gets to choose whether he wants to start rebuilding pip speed with scary pressure, or back off and zone some more, and this is certainly worth a heck of a lot in long-term expected damage)
I think @STORM179 and @Infilament covered just about everything about Fulgore’s DP.You should also know that Fulgore is one of the few characters that actually has a meter-less, invincible DP, and that is an extremely powerful tool, especially in Fulgore’s arsenal.
A shadow counter would not stop the Gargos pressure, but shadow blade dash would’ve been a godsend. I guess all I can say is that if you play normal characters you don’t know how meter starved this character currently is when facing good pressure. If that’s perfectly fine with everyone then I don’t know what else to say. I never posted or ranted about any other nerfs prior to 3.7, but I honestly just hate playing anymore, and now can fully see why people have quit the game after their characters were dramatically changed.
The frustrating thing to me is that the response I’ve gotten from most people is “you have DP.” Is that really all that matters? Would a character that literally had nothing except a DP be viable? Of course not. Other characters get meter for correctly blocking and a comeback mechanic once they take enough damage, some of whom also have a DP. Currently fulgore gets neither. If you can’t win with your own pressure (and do it with little to no meter) it’s already over. I’m not even asking for buffs, I just want the ■■■■■■■ nerfs to stop.
Win big or die.
Dude bro dude. Do you know what i would give for thunder to have an invincible dp. The thunder ex dp is more of a risk. A good player will say oh ive run over this thunder for 30 secs then when he gets a bar ill give him a bit of space to hang himself. Your argument seems to be that your dp doesnt swing the momentum in your favor. It has been previously stated that it does but if you reject this line of logic then jaggo and orchid are no better. You have said before that they build so mych meter that they have an easier time turning the tide of battle. This line of reasoning seems a bit lacking. You act as if shadow counter is the best defensive option in the game. Fulgores dp gives him so little because he already has so much. I get that you feel as tho once put under pressure you have very limited options. Other characters feel the same way that is the nature of pressure. Think gargos he has no wakeups and if he shadow counters he cant use minions making him a subpar character. Think omen mister meter king he uses meter to escape and he doesn’t get dmg for it hes just 2 feet away now. It seems like u wanna play cinder and just not hold any pressure and get momentum every time u escape. Fulgore can comeback it just takes oodles of effort. Top players dnt have 2 use the best charcters in the game. The reason i love ki is for the diversity it allows, everyone is at least mid tier. I dont think fulgore needs anything he seems to be in a good place.
Ok, but are those characters as good from every spot on the screen as Fulgore is? He is a counter zoner who can rush down among the best in the game, do you feel this is worth something?
Well, this isn’t good. Regardless of who is correct in the Fulgore discussion, you should probably just try some other characters for a bit. If you really do believe Fulgore is either bad or not fun anymore, then try some new characters instead.