So this has been on my mind…can they just remove it? It doesn’t help him and it’s screwed me when I got it on accident more than once. I’d rather this just not exist for the character altogether if it’s going to be as bad as it is.
I’ve definitely had that thought too. Although, lately I have been playing around with it with 0 or 1 chunks to see if/how it can be useful. I’ll have to force myself to just use it but I’m definitely not sure how practical it is to use in match to bait throws or certain short-ranged normals.
… I don’t know …
If they were to remove it though, I doubt many of us would miss it!
Well, after Glacius getting one, I highly doubt they could remove Aganos’ one
I would find interesting to remove Aganos’ dashes while chunked, and buff a bit his backdash while chunkless. Even being a bad one would be still ok, but not THAT bad
In all my life, I believe that backdash has been useful to me… 2, 3 times? And it was by accident, avoiding a DP, but nothing more.
I wouldn’t miss it
I can’t tell you how many times getting an accidental back/forward dash has cost me key moments in matches. Not that I get it often, but when it does happen it’s extremely apparent that it was done on accident.
I honestly don’t think anyone would miss it. It gets stuffed in the corner if you try to avoid a throw/meaty with it and War Path serves a better purpose than forward dash does. It’d be cool if at least back dash had some extra utility to it, especially when chunked but that’s venturing into needlessly dumb change area.
While it’s certainly rarer than an accidental dash, his actually SAVED me twice in recent memory. I even made clips showcasing those very moments (go to my XBL profile to see them - 1 is called “dodging dinosaurs” if I recall). While it may not seem like it, it can be useful in rare and unusual circumstances. For example, you can still use it to avoid throws and other attacks due to the universal 1st 7 frames of invulnerability. So, I argue that even for all of its negatives, it’s because of its positives that I think we should keep it.
Notes: I will list the data as “x, y” where x is the forward dash’s total frames and y is the backdash’s total frames. On every backdash in the game, you’re supposed to be invincible to everything for the first 7 frames, and then additionally throw invincible for 4 more frames (up to and including frame 11). From frame 12 and on, you can be hit by everything. I call this: invinc: (7, 11). If a character does NOT follow this invincibility rule, I will list it next to their backdash
Aganos: 51, 36 (invinc: 6, 10, only 4f of prejump)
Aganos 1c: 55, 40 (only 4f of prejump)
Aganos 2c: 60, 43
Aganos 3c: 67, 48 (invinc: 8, 13)
Aganos 4c: 76, 54 (invinc: 9, 14, 6f of prejump)
So, chunkless Aganos dash is 6 frames invulnerable to everything, and from frame 7 to 10 invul to throws
1c and 2c Aganos has the regular 7 frames invul and 11 invul to throws
3C Aganos has 8 invul frames, and 13 for throws
4C Aganos has 9 invul frames, and 14 for throws
Just to compare: Jago’s l. tiger fury(his dp) is 3 frames startup, 8 active frames, 32 recovery frames, for a total of 43 frames.
Which means that if Jago uses it as meaty, and considering how big is Aganos hurtbox and how poor is the distance he travels with his backdash, the DP would hit Aganos anyway. If Jago performs the DP too soon he STILLS could recover in time to be +1/0/-1 against Aganos
I don’t have the regular throw frame data, but I’m sure that Jago could perform a meaty throw, Aganos could use backdash to avoid it, and still Jago will be +
So… No. If backdash saves you, it’s because it’s so bad, that your opponent was stunned enough to not act after seeing it, since it’s so rare to see
But my point remains - it can still save you - it’s just not generally (or really anywhere near) the most optimal solution. I maintain my position on this matter. It’s better to have something over nothing.
Also, regarding your last paragraph, my aforementioned clip also disagrees with you.
@Dayv0, why do you insist on countering/correcting/clarifying virtually every argument I make? Take the advice everyone tells me - take a break; post less.
Yes, it can save you…
If you are lucky, very lucky…
But can doom you easily if you perform it by accident
OP(and me, and several others) states that the amount of times it works agaisnt you by accident outnumbers the amount of times it saves you(and you need a lot of luck for this)
IMO it’s going to stay, as the implementation of Glacius’ one suggests, but well…
-----[quote=“GalacticGeek, post:8, topic:17721”]
@Dayv0, why do you insist on countering/correcting/clarifying virtually every argument I make? Take the advice everyone tells me - take a breal; post less.
Because you are wrong in some of them, or not totally clear in others, and that could lead to some people missunderstanding. Do you want to be the reason of someone missunderstanding? I belive not, since you want the maximum spread for KI. So as I
Also, the reasons people said you to post less are totally different from the ones you have to ask me to stop.
Well, as we all know, it’s up to the player to reduce and/or prevent those accidents from happening - after all, it’s not the game’s fault.
Well, it is a forum for discussion. People either post to agree with you or post to disagree with you. You tend to take extreme and contrarian positions, and then when presented with evidence double down, without offering much support.
This gives the appearance that your positions aren’t well considered. As they say, “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence,” and I think it’s fair to say “Aganos’s backdash is useful,” is an extraordinary claim.
I said it CAN be useful, not that it is. Big difference.
I think the thing people are trying to argue in this instance is that it’s a bad thing to say that his backdash can be useful implies that it should be used more which is a bad habit for Aganos players to develop. After the first few times, a good player will be able to react and a great player will punish you for it on the first time like this one fight I had against RAAM where I accidentally got backdash on wakeup and made his attack whiff, but then he got me with a Dominance as a punish immediately after he saw that his move whiffed.
Saying that this move has any saving grace can lead to people relying on it and thus, forming bad habits.
On to the topic of the dash itself. I think that if the backdash itself went a bit further back would make it a bit more useful. It hardly moves him anywhere at all and I completely understand why that is, why give someone that big with armor to back things up such amazing movement options? It’s also a way to overall nerf his defense in the sense that he can’t get a meterless way to avoid meaties/throws in any fashion. I’m just trying to spitball ideas as to what could possible be done to the move to make it not completely worthless. It’s literally no skin off my nose if the move stays the same until the end of time, it just stinks to think that one of his tools in his arsenal isn’t worth using. I’m just glad War Path got those buffs to it in the first place so at the very least he has a safe way to close distance.
Rewatch the stream where they gave Glacius a dash. They explained it best there. Spinal’s back dash still sucks but I’ve seen lots of use in it. The only dash I don’t agree with is Riptor’s. It’s relatively safe to use regularly and can almost imitate a dp which can be followed up with a combo. Aganos and Glacius don’t have inputs where you should be accidentally dashing during normal play. So it wouldn’t make sense to take out a non issue based on user error. I sometimes get a Dp instead of fireball when walking forward, or dash forward fireball becomes a dp. Should the inputs be changed? Or moves removed? No, I should learn how to make the inputs work for me.
The dashes are pretty…far below standard.
I can’t even remember a time when I even saw an aganos dash in either direction. What’s the point of making the dash THAT slow that it virtually sees no use?
Is there is a reason to use them? The I-frames on the backdash don’t help much when it takes 5478 years to complete and most moves will have recovered in time to punish a still backdashing aganos or the I-frames don’t last long enough to do any good. Then there’s the forward dash…what’s the point of it again?
Please do not propagate the myth that Spinal’s backdash is bad - it is not. It doesn’t go very far, but recovers quickly, which is better than a backdash that goes far but takes a long time to end (i.e. Sadira).
@SullenMosquito Although its true with Glacius (in that a cruddy dash is better than none), the same can’t be said for Aganos when you can literally react (if you’re not asleep at the wheel or used a move with a shitton of recovery) to it or it has less invincibility than others when he has no chunks for defense. Spinal’s backdash is still decent at avoiding throws. Aganos’ can do that but then that just puts him back in the situation where he’s in recovery while the opponent has recovered. Glacius’ dash also moves him a decent bit where as I think last time I measured, Aganos’ only moves half of a big square in the training room*.
*Correction, he moves exactly 5 squares back with his backdash in the span of anywhere between 36-54 frames. Isn’t Spinals’ backdash 38 frames or am I thinking of Glacius?
@FengShuiEnergy it’s all part of how they went into balancing his defenses. They intentionally made his dashes bad as he’s supposed to have bad movement and defense options outside of meter usage to compensate for how well his neutral game is. It’s just a sucky feeling to know that I can’t use it effectively but it’s fine. It’s part of his design and all.
Again…it serves virtually no purpose. Other characters also have bad movement options but their bacdashes aren’t nowhere near as bad as aganos’. Look at raam, not a very mobile character yet he’s not suffering 40+ frames dashes. Nor is arbiter or even hisako for that matter.
And if it’s this bad why give him one in the first place? For what purpose does it serve? To open yourself up? So again…why bother? Why not just remove it.
Hell even the noobie aganos’ aren’t using it. If noobies ain’t using it, you know something’s fishy.
Hell agnos WALKS further then he dashes.
I compare it to fulgore’s air shadow eye laser. It’s that bad.
Oh no I completely get you, it’s like they gave it to him just to give him one, not as if it was a necessary move in his pool of movement options. I mean, I know it was very deliberate to give him that backdash and all but it just makes me feel like the giant rock that I am when I use it. I’m not complaining or anything, I’m just less than thrilled when I accidentally have it come out.
I want to be able to find a practical use for it that’s more than just for the rare occasion like how @GalacticGeek said, but I can’t think too much of what it can be practically used for.
It takes too long to go through that’s why. Then throw on the distance he actually makes with it and you’re left with…nothing really.