Yess Sonic pitch forks ready…jk, Dont mind me Im just throwing in my two cents! I’m going to play the character regardless. I’m just trying to wrap my head around the reasoning for this change.
I mean they gave a decent reason. Reversals shouldn’t lead to combos without resources.
What the reasoning is missing is A) Why would I ever use the medium version now and B) Why did it take so long to suddenly decide to change this?
Great points all around, no doubt. I would ask though, since there seems to be a bit of a trend as it pertains to medium specials as you list them above, should there be a bit more utility in medium specials of this nature if the lights and heavies have such well defined roles?
I mean, I guess they don’t have to have specific roles or utility, but why not give them some unique utility so that they’re more in line with the L and H versions? Doesn’t it seem like somewhat of an odd choice to have three variations on a move where only two of them have well defined roles and the third doesn’t as much to the point where you feel less compelled to use it, or am I way off base here?
Very few opponents are “afraid” of Glacius at range, they don’t really have to be. What most opponents are afraid of is his damage at close range. This change really just lowers the level of fear from close range damage options, while doing nothing to increase it at range. The end result is you have a Glacius who really doesn’t need to be feared when at range, and should you close the distance, is much less likely to initiate damage to be afraid of. That should tell you something from a design standpoint if you truly want him to be a zoner.
i was thinking this too, would have been sweet if you could cancel the medium puddle punch into hail or something…or when medium puddle hit it would loft the opponents up for juggling opportunities.
I don’t think it’s just you. While I think the change is fine and largely justified, the fact that it took this long to do it kind of proves that it wasn’t a huge, game-defining issue. More of a change to bring a character in line with a vaguely defined design philosophy/sensibility, which isn’t always fun, especially if it wasn’t like the character was breaking down barn doors or anything.
While there are important distinctions to note between Jago’s DP and Glacius’ puddle punch (safe jumpability, lack of truly safe shadow cancel, etc), I think they do have some important similarities. The biggest one (and the one I think probably initiated this change) is that it functions virtually identically as a frame trap off a forward-advancing special. Cold shoulder->puddle punch was every bit as shenanigansy as windkick->DP, except that Glacius’ rendition also opened you up into full combo. And though the puddle->shadow hail isn’t as bulletproof as Jago DP->shadow fireball, it was a resource dependent punish that was pretty easy to miss in a real match. To be honest I think Glay’s version of this kind of thing was probably more fair than Jago just because he doesn’t have infinite meter, but I know a lot of people had issues with it.
Well, depending on the move, game, and/or character, it’s actually the light and heavy versions of moves that see limited use. In SFV, for instance, it’s usually the medium version of a shoryu that has inviniciblity. The heavy is used to tack on damage in combos and the medium to break out of pressure or AA, but there may never be a reason to use the light version. In other games maybe the heavy version of a move just has too much startup to be useful, or sometimes will be disadvantaged on both block and hit.
KI often takes the opposite approach, where the light is invincible, but no matter how you balance it you’ll tend to wind up with gaps unless a move drastically changes properties with strength (think Aria blade body DP or Kim’s dragon dance). When all three strengths of a move are fundamentally similar and exist on a spectrum, you’ll find that extremes of certain properties (be it range, start-up, or safety) will tend to be prioritized over some blend of the above.
Glacius is more a trap grappler than he is a zoner. He’s kind of always been that way, really.
Wouldn’t you say that now you’d might play him as more of a zoner. Create space, use the hail variations to create an obstacle course that your opponent has to figure out, while you snipe him with huge range hits or the unblockable shatter. And if your opponent does navigate the course successfully and gets close you still have one of the most damaging burst damage combos to keep people away from you. Cold shoulder pushes you back, so a blocked (and unpunished one) can get your more space to help you get in position to zone again. Is this not the case? (hopefully so, but I’m not 100% sure.)
I already play this way, with the exception of throwing out cold shoulder willy nilly as it’s too risky, not to mention it gets stuffed or thrown.
My point is that Glacius has very little potency at the ranges he is supposedly to be playing at, he can’t even maintain full screen length. He can’t keep a steady stream of obstacles to navigate: his moves are slow, he has incredibly slow backwards movement, hail slowly moves across the screen and can’t be summoned again until it’s off screen, and shatter has three distinct locations. In KI, it doesn’t take much to move past a particularly unintimidating mini obstacle course.
I’ll be completely honest with every here this change makes no since AT ALL!! First to all glacius is already having a hard time winning his good mu so these guy’s decide to completely make his (pp) puddle punch useless! Why do I say this statement? Simply because glacius never had a true wake even with meter you can grab him out of most most of his (Pp) puddle punches and Stuff them as well. So honestly glacius is TRASH in my eyes when it comes to higher lvl play not, party not casuals with friends & and Frank’s hotdogs. The change was super unnecessary and not called for! Anyone that disagrees you have a serious mental issue period!
Well, Heavy version is an honest-to-god fully invulnerable reversal now. That’s honestly pretty helpful in some matchups.
But the light and medium versions got the shaft, yes.
Also, you said even with meter Glacius doesn’t have a true reversal. I thought Shadow Puddle Punch is fully invulnerable, or am I wrong?
Sorry you are absolutely correct shadow pp is fully invisible…
I just want to point something out that might cheer people up a bit.
There was a stealth fix to projectiles in this patch because they weren’t getting their full stray neutral hit damage. So Glacius’ hails are generally gonna be more damaging.
If Glacius was trash before because his reversal wasn’t real at all (I think this is a highly dubious claim for the record - stuffable by throws and being weak to non-true meaties isn’t “garbage” relative to what the moves gained for Glacius), then his having a true reversal now should be read as a significant buff.
But seriously, we should really unpack all these protestations about how useless the old puddle punches were. Cause they really, really weren’t. They were as useless as TJ strike-invincible but throwable rolls, which is to say, lost to OS’s and intentional setups designed to catch them, but still widely seen because KI is scrambly, delayed meaty setups can be hard, and Glacius got enough out of the attempt that he was often willing to try for it. Puddle punch has never been useless, full stop, and now that his heavy version is fully invincible and hits like a Jago DP (and according to @Infilament, is actually a true blockstring when canceled into shadow hail) it’s still not going to be useless.
I genuinely think people are missing how big an asset a fully invinvible wakeup is to Glacius. For all the utility of the original puddle punches, the fact that they were stuffable did make them less effective and less of a factor at higher levels of play. Heavy puddle punch is now a live threat that really does have to be considered on wakeup as a viable “get off me” tool, and that’s not nothing. It was possible to apply pressure through the old puddle punch. Baiting fully invincible reversals however generally requires you to wait, jump, or otherwise back the hell off. Waiting or backing up is dangerous against Glacius because his throw range is huge, so people won’t want to just be sitting next to him doing nothing, and neutral jump baits should now eat heavy puddle punch AA’s on reaction. The mere existence of a Jago DP on his wakeup that cannot be stuffed changes the calculus on how knockdown pressure will be applied, and that opens up gaps that can be exploited.
It’s entirely possible to see the change as an overall nerf to Glacius - it really is a fine distinction because of how it could lead into combo before. But Glacius is not now trash because his meterless reversal can’t be stuffed but doesn’t lead into combo. And bonus point - a stuffable light DP that’s only stuffable for 3(?) frames is not useless. That basically means it will lose to perfect meaties, and perfect meaties aren’t always what’s coming at you. If you shoulder in and light puddle punch after, how tight does someone’s button press have to be actually come out on top for that exchange?
I took LCD’s word for this after 2 minutes of training, and maybe I shouldn’t have.
Close range is definitely a true block string against characters of all heights, and because heavy DP moves Glacius forward a pretty huge chunk, it’s often close range. However, at the very tip of heavy DP range, the hail is not a true block string because that horizontal separation lets you leave block stun. It’s probably not reliable in real matches to try and space Glacius out, though, because it becomes obvious what you’re doing and he likely won’t reversal. But “always a true a block string” is strictly not true.
It’s still really good, though, because most of the time it will be. Light and medium DP could never be canceled into shadow hail from any range and be tight.
As for light DP being useless now… eh, yes and no. Sadira’s flip kick is 4+0 (ie, 4 frames of being stuffable). How often do you get hit by that move as a wakeup? In all those situations, you’ll get hit by Glacius light DP. It’s a bad idea to try it against science players, but in a real match you’ll probably get away with it a bit. And otherwise, you get Jago’s DP damage into a truly safe shadow move from 80% of ranges (baitable in ways Jago’s DP is not, though).
I know Glacius players are upset losing this tool but there will be times when you are glad to have the full invincibility as well (such as against Hisako).
Actually, just knowing @F3Sleep is saltier about this than I am makes me feel better, so thanks for that.
As I said, I’m not a tournament player and I have a particular style of play that will clearly have to change. Up until recently I wasn’t aware PP into shadow hail was a thing so I will have to start playing around with that. I’m not sure that it makes a ton of sense to use his meter this way, but I suppose it might if you are trying to avoid eating a full combo or punish from a blocked pp.
Because his shadow PP was truly invincible this has been a tool for me when Glacius is in the corner and especially against characters mixing in flipout. If you are getting combed and chose not to break you can keep buffering this and then on flipout (which is too fast for me on reaction, to be honest) it will come out and hit a good percentage of the time and if not you could instinct cancel. I assume that the heavy PP would now do the same but since you can’t instinct cancel for safety you could use the shadow hail block string. My question, though, is can the opponent shadow counter the shadow hail in that situation?
If you can, it’s pretty freaking hard
Nah, you can’t.
what makes me laugh is that glacius isn’t a great character his “zoning” game is really weak so the whole argument of his puddle punch being too good is a lie. it was an unnecessary change to a character that is weak. give glacius a true defense option because in all honesty heavy dp might do a good chunk of damage but it can be punished by pressing buttons. for example whenever i face orchid i try my best to get out of her block strings but guess what her heavy kick overhead move (i don’t even know what it’s called) beats it everytime. my other option pop the light one it’s faster and i can try to get a quick combo or let her break that way i am at a good distance. with this nerf it looses every time now as well. his good mu’s are barely good mu’s. you lock him in a vortex and he’s basically screwed. another thing why is it being compared to jago’s dp?! Glacius mains want it to be like jago’s but it’s not. It doesn’t properly anti air at all. your opponent jumps you’re probably not gonna catch em. so now you whiff and are unsafe get punished. Glacius gets no love. Heck every other zoner-like character is way better then him. Kan-ra, gargos, eyedol, omen, fulgore (HE’S NOT EVEN SUPPOSE TO BE A ZONER!) why play glacius if everyone else is better. for me it’s just because i like the character a lot and i still keep pushing with him.
You do realize the patch made it so the heavy version can’t be stuffed anymore, right?