I haven’t posted a lot in this section, despite being a Glacius main since S1. I don’t really hit the lab to develop new tech or consider myself a top tier Glacius player. But I’m truly puzzled by the changes to Glacius’s puddle punch in patch 3.4 and this seemed like the place to go. I pride myself on playing the game as it is given to me and not worrying about nerfs/buffs. Just adapt and move on. But I’m just kind of floored by this change - of all the things I thought they might nerf on Glacius this wasn’t it.
If I understand this correctly, they added a few frames of invulnerability to the heavy puddle punch, removed the combo starting ability from medium puddle punch(!) and made light puddle punch even more vulnerable (fewer invincible frames) but will still start a combo. What? The rationale on the patch notes is “Yeah… it seems weird to have a reversal that starts a combo.” What?!? He’s had a combo starting “reversal” for almost three years now. Suddenly it’s just too weird? And of course he never had an invincible reversal (until now? maybe?) but the closest (HP puddle punch) never started a combo. ANd it says in the patch notes it should be a better anti-air. But I’m having trouble figuring that out - and why would I need heavy PP as an anti-air? The other two puddle punches can be thrown and stuffed. So… what am I missing here? Why was this needed? After three years too many Glacius players actually starting combos? I’m at a loss.
And how are you expected to play Glacius at this point? Why would anyone ever use medium PP? It is worse than heavy (slow, vulnerable) and worse than light (no combo). So what’s the point? What am I missing here? And can someone give me a solid definition of “reversal” because I’m having a hard time understanding why these very vulnerable moves are looked at as if they were DPs (invincible reversal) and some how considered unfair…
People can feel free to pile on because this is a salty complaint. But I’m just baffled. I won’t be home to check out the patch for another week almost, but I’m really puzzled. @Infilament, @SonicDolphin117 you want to help me out here?
As an aside, will definitely check out Infil and Sajam’s stream of the patch review when I am somewhere that has better than garbage tier internet for streaming…
Personally, I think they should’ve done something about his cold shoulder - it comes out really fast on all strengths (even though I admit it is easily punishable on block). Maybe shorten its effective range to compensate maybe (much like they did with Jago’s windkick)?
You keep quoting “reversal”, but puddle punch has never been a bad one. Being strike invincible into combo isn’t a bad move, even if it was annoying to get thrown out of it. All things considered, puddle punch is actually a decent reversal. Not fully invincible, but gets you out of physical meaties and opens into combo. There are better reversals out there of course, but there are a whole lot that are worse.
From the opposing side, it’s always frustrating to get hit with reversals, but with puddle punch it was more galling because not only did you get tagged, but you also got hit into combo by a character who hits like a damn truck in close range combo scenarios. Glacius’ version of windkick->DP (cold shoulder->puddle punch) was doubly frustrating for this reason. It’s annoying to have people toss out negative moves and then full combo punish you because you had the temerity to try and press your frame advantage. It’s bad enough eating Jago counterhit DP on his nonsense frame trap - no one wants to be full comboed from something like that.
Reversal technically just means to do something on the first available frame, out of either knockdown or blockstun. Used to describe DP-like moves, it usually just means a move that comes out fast and has at least a little utility as a “get off me” move. It’s a more generic term than DP, which is good because not all varieties of “get off me” moves are created equal, or have anything in common with an actual dragon punch, aesthetically or property-wise.
If it makes any Glacius players happy, at least you’ll now be able to puddle punch against Hisako without getting eaten
That does kind of make me wonder why they didn’t change medium puddle punch so that it does… I don’t know, something different, with some type of unique utility that makes you want to use it? I don’t really hate losing the combo ability off of it if there’s some type of exchange, but now it really seems as though they’ve made it somewhat pointless.
It’s a stupid change, that weakens pretty much every aspect of his game. Now opponents have no reason to respect him at any range because he has no real potency at any of them (well maybe mid range under certain conditions), not that they really respected him at close range to begin with.
If they intended to change medium PP utility, I’d much rather they give him a hard knockdown, instead of a soft one.
It’s really not that uncommon for not every version of a move to have some specific utility. How often do you see Jago medium DP? Rarely - if the jump is deep you’ll use light, if you want minimum recovery you’ll also use light, and if you want someone to reevaluate their life choices you’ll use heavy. How often do you see Hisako medium possession? Never - all versions do the same damage; if you want quick suction you use light, and if you want to hold it you do heavy. How often do you see Orchid medium DP, or Cinder medium fireflash, etc. Not all versions of all moves are meant to be great or go-to options, and this is especially true of reversal type moves.
Don’t forget that his heavy puddle is now fully invulnerable and hits like a Jago DP -that has to be respected. It might be baitable, safe-jumpable, etc, but that kind of damage is no joke, and certainly is something that has to be taken into account when pressuring him.
If they weren’t going to respect the possibility of reversal into combo, they are certainly less likely to respect a DP option they can quick rise from to immediately maintain pressure.
I dunno what to tell you man…if you think a fully invincible meterless reversal that deals Jago-DP levels of damage isn’t good, then I think your sense of what’s “good” is a little off. That’s a really potent tool for a zoner to have…
On a more general note, if someone isn’t respecting your option to DP out of trouble, then you DP them in the face until they bloody well figure it out. And once they do figure it out, it’s very favorable for Glacius, because with his crazy throw range, baiting reversals is actually pretty dangerous.
What do you want me to do instead? Throw insults at the devs for making a small change to my character that probably doesn’t affect my gameplan that much?
I’m lucky I didn’t main Sadira or Maya in S2, THEY actually had changes that hit their characters hard. Why should I complain?
We’ll see how DPing them in the face until they stop works out. Problem is, people want to make the Jago comparison, but Glacius isn’t Jago. He doesn’t have the recovery or the movement Jago has that facilitate his DP options.
Seriously, if they want him to be the game’s zoner, then how about offering him some incentive for actually being one other than, “well I’m screwed if my opponent gets close.” Quite frankly, it’s very difficult to land a combo at range and maintain it, for considerably less payoff. His long range tools aren’t even practical at the furthest ranges (yet he’s the “de facto” zoner ). There is very little to actually incentivize his ranged game, which is most likely why many Glacius players don’t play him that way.
Yeah, I’m just quoting “reversal” because I’m having trouble understanding the term.
I certainly recognize that people hate getting hit by it. But I’m not sure that really explains the thought process. And maybe I’m just being salty but I don’t see the logic behind “Glacius is a zoner - no more combo starting reversal” in patch 3.4. I’m not seeing a problem that was asking to be fixed, but maybe that’s just me. I always relied heavily on medium puddle punch and probably should have been using heavy more often - so I will be trying to work that in to my gameplan now. But I’m just having trouble really seeing where this comes from. Oh well.[quote=“SonicDolphin117, post:10, topic:14813, full:true”]
Glacius isn’t a bad character by any means. His setups can be utterly stupid sometimes.
He’ll be just fine.
[/quote]
No question these are both true. But I am a pretty straightforward Glacius player and my style doesn’t involve anything more than basic setups less centered on great timing and more on training the opponent. Granted, that’s my weakness, but this change really pulls the rug out from my ability to play Glacius my way. That’s fine. The whole game isn’t just about me. But as I’ve said ad nauseum (and will stop saying now), I just don’t see why this was needed.
And although I don’t like the thread degenerating into salt, I do tend to agree with @zcythe about the important difference between Glacius’s heavy puddle and Jago’s DP. Jago’s DP is really useful because he can tack it on essentially everywhere he has to end one of his pressure block strings - or not. This “thought it was your turn? Oh no it’s not beeotch!” aspect to Jago is sorely missing from Glacius. So, it’s much easier to bait his puddle punch and punish. I agree that Glacius’s throw range is a big asset (and I throw a lot), so maybe the fully invincible heavy puddle will keep people from just throwing him up close in a “what’s the worst that could happen” kind of way. I can’t get my hands on the game right now to play around with this.
). There is very little to actually incentivize his ranged game, which is most likely why many Glacius players don’t play him that way.