3.8 suggested changes for Fulgore

patch
rebalance
fulgore
Tags: #<Tag:0x00007f74ab4dc638> #<Tag:0x00007f74ab4dc4f8> #<Tag:0x00007f74ab4dc3b8>
#161

So, once upon a time Fulgore having meter meant much more than the rest of the cast, tell me what it means now though.

It takes 2 pips (half a meter) and 3 fireballs to still not do as much as Jago’s regular uncharged meterless fireball.

He can no longer pip cancel to beat out a shadow counter.

He can no longer pip cancel lasers into fireballs.

And while his instinct gives him access to as much pip cancelling as he wants for 15 seconds, he doesn’t gain access to anything new, no new pressure tools or real damage or anything like that. He can’t do anything that he wouldn’t have been able to do if he had meter for it anyway. But his instinct also doesn’t make up for the fact that he doesn’t get access to shadow moves or counters from it, because he’s not actually getting meter.

That said, the rest of the cast gets about twice as much meter AND when they get instinct (at least in almost every case) they get access to something they wouldn’t normally have, whether its pressure or damage or whatever.

My issue, maybe I haven’t stated it clearly, is that Fulgore has already been balanced around the assumption that he’s going to get a lot of meter by reducing what he can do with it through the earlier season 3 patches (whether through damage or options, they’ve chipped away from it). Which is fine, as I’ve said before he needed SOME nerfs. But we’re currently at a place where after losing most of what made his meter special, he now also doesn’t get meter. So what’s the point?

I feel like you’re playing under the assumption that Fulgore still has as many options as he did at the start of s3 provided he’s got meter, I can assure you, he doesn’t.

1 Like
#162

You are isolating data without looking at the big picture.

A fireball into teleport is a powerful mixup (left/right/low/overhead/throw). Jago can never have access to something like this.

IMO you are taking the wrong assumption that Fulgore should aim to have full meter every fight. And that’s wrong. If Fulgore manages to get full meter, he is outclassing by far his opponent.

Fulgore SHOULD starve for meter. He doesn’t need meter to perform a mixup from fullscreen. Slow fireball into teleport could just cost you reactor speed, but is a powerful tool which other chars need meter/resources to mimic in terms of reward/risk.

Until his instinct was toned down, he never really had a problem to have meter, making him a top 3 contender during all s2 and almost all s3. Now, after this patch, he is still a top 10 character IMO.

Is it that bad? Is it that bad to not being among the 3 best chars? I don’t think so.

Play other characters. Play Kan-Ra. Aganos. Spinal. Look how they have to work for their resources, the risk they have to take. And then tell us if Fulgore doesn’t have good options without so much effort

4 Likes
#163

I’ll say it again here simply because it is relevant to the discussion - I don’t actually believe this patch will have much of an effect on Fulgore’s meter build if you play the character with an eye for building meter. Not being able to frame trap cr.MK into itself isn’t the end of the world (showcased by the fact that I’ve never done it anyway and still had solid meter resources), and the frames on medium low laser simply mean you maybe shouldn’t be using the move as the staple of your offense anymore (you should have switched off from it anyway if meter gain was your primary goal). The character still has many good options for building meter if that’s what he wants.

Again - I don’t believe most of the changes were warranted. But also again - while making the character a bit worse, I don’t think any of that “worseness” is really coming from lack of meter issues. I’m interested to play him again when 3.8 drops, but I don’t think I’m wrong on this.

1 Like
#164

Yeah, after the knee-jerk reaction has passed and thinking more about it, I think the frame data changes really aren’t going to change much aside from medium laser. And that’s like…yeah, that’s fair. The move is still a safe two hit low with big range. It still blows up attempts to fuzzy guard his offense, you just don’t get to keep attacking afterward now.

As for meter, he still has the frame trap sequence of close mp, stand lk, stand lk, crouch mk, blade dash. You can’t mash on crouch mk and build speed from it but you still have sequences you can use.

As for @paramisery --you seem really overly fixated on some things, so let me address them.

  • Fulgore’s fireball doesn’t do a lot of damage, even multifireball

Yep! That’s because the purpose of this move isn’t damage. It’s setting up offense and controlling space. Multifireball is not something you use to do extra damage, the point is things like heavy fireball > light fireball, which leaves you in a very advantageous situation. Or of course the classic fireball > DP. Jago’s fireball does more damage–it also doesn’t let him do teleport mixups!

  • His instinct is worse than other characters’

Sure! This is true. His instinct is almost entirely about letting him charge meter, which isn’t super powerful on its own. However, his full meter buffs are better than everyone else’s by infinity percent, because nobody else has that. His buffs at full meter are p much like an alternate instinct, he just has to work to get there–and yes, you CAN get there, and you can stay there if you want to.

  • Fulgore needs shadow moves/shadow counters

Fulgore has good shadow moves; blade dash is one of the better fireball punishes in the game, shadow fireball/DP are good for combo damage, and shadow laser is…well, that one isn’t super useful I guess. But fulgore doesn’t NEED to use these. He has other options to navigate zoning. He doesn’t need to do huge combo damage. Shadow counters are less important when you have a meterless reversal. You have the option of using these strong tools, but you also have the option to focus on his other meter uses, pip cancels or aiming for 10 pips.

  • Nobody is acknowledging how much fulgore got nerfed

No? I understand exactly how he got nerfed, I’ve been playing him since the start of season 3. Almost all of the nerfs make sense to me, because I think some stuff just ended up being stronger than it should have. Fulgore was a contender for best in the game at the start of the season. He lost a lot of stuff, but personally I think he was a pretty abusive character before, being both very easy to play, and very hard to deal with. Even without the really gross stuff, though, fulgore is fundamentally solid–he just isn’t easy anymore. I don’t want to frame this as you getting blown up because of that, but…y’know, have you considered trying some easier characters?

3 Likes
#165

I can understand some of Fulgore’s nerf such as the medium laser. However the nerfs to his normals was a bit much. I think the best thing to do is learn other characters. Once you do, see what tricks you learned and try to apply them to Fulgore. For example, I worked on both Hisako and Jago. I learned a few things from each one. Hisako? I learned a few trick wall splat and mid-combo resets. Jago? A few fireball tricks. Fulgore can take those things and do them potentially even better! Fulgore is very strong.

2 Likes
#166

Well he’s all yours. Like you implied I need an easier character. That’s why I’ve been playing him since he dropped at the end of s1, purely because of how easy he was. The fact that I’m not overly excited and positive about an endless stream of nerfs means I’m clearly too stupid to keep playing.

I actually kind of hope he gets nerfed more in 3.9. Why stop now? After all, he’s still got a lot of tools! They haven’t made heavy blade dash unsafe yet, that should be next and it would be in line with Jago’s heavy wind kick. Maybe make energy linkers follow the energy guidelines of reducing spin speed, since those are the linkers that give him better frame advantage they’re superior to blade dash in combos. He doesn’t need meter anyway, he’s got a meter less invincible light dp! I genuinely can’t wait to see people talk about how good he still is after more nerfs.

If you compare Fulgore in his current state to what Orchid is able to do right now, she looks downright busted (not that I’m saying she is, just that Fulgore is a joke). Practically double damage, meter less “pip cancel” from slide into DP, all DPs invincible, incredibly strong pressure from her instinct, and normal meter gain. But yeah, nerf Fulgore more.

#167

So now medium laser is as negative as medium blade dash, and unlike blade dash it slows the reactor speed. It’s against logic.

But in general, last patches have little logic, persecuting some characters while releasing cheap copies of other ones, leaving the rest of the cast unscathed.

I’m kind of tired of readapting my gamestyle everytime a patch comes out. It’s not funny. And when a game is not funny, there’s no point in keep playing it.

1 Like
#168

Medium laser is a low. Twice. And you can pip cancel it into blade dash. And you get to manual any strength afterward, even with the nerfs.

1 Like
#169

Most of her special preassure tools are unsafe. Also, you are telling me that Orchid can make her unsafe slide unsafer with a DP? Yeah, Fulgore’s pip cancels are far worse than that

Fulgore Best Counter-Breaker Combos:
0 Bars: 44%
1 Bar: 52%
2 Bars: 61%

Orchid Best Counter-Breaker Combos:
0 Bars: 47%
1 Bar: 57%
2 Bars: 65%

Mmmmm… No

15-30 seconds of strong preassure per match? Seems crazy. If only Fulgore would have extraordinary preassure from the very moment he get a single pip… Or even without them!

Ok

You know, you sound like a spoiled kid whose parents just said that he can’t have cake all the day and must eat vegetables.

You are dooming Fulgore before even trying the patch. You insist into watching only the tree, instead the forest. Good players don’t do that. Be a better player and try to learn more about your character

3 Likes
#170

So who are you interested in picking up instead?

#171

Why don’t you use Orchid then? You keep on listing the things that she does better than Fulgore. You want more damage, invincible DP’s, more meter, and a better instinct? Why not just use Orchid? Perhaps if you do, you might see some things where Fulgore does better. If not, why not use Orchid?

2 Likes
#172

@Paramisery you should try Aganos? He’s pretty solid tbh

1 Like
#173
3 Likes
#174

For everyone annoyed about the medium laser change, remember that Fulgore will be predominantly using single hit opener options now, either with low laser or blade dash. With the removal of the ability to stuff shadow counters with a pip cancel, medium laser will allow you to blow up shadow counter attempts and keep them guessing on when they have to shadow counter you.

3 Likes
#175

In regards to readapting, all players have to after a patch. Not just the ones that were nerfed/buffed or bug fixed. I’m already formulating in my head where i think i’ll be attempting my exchange opener on Thunder’s wakeup more than i ever have. And also, how i can no longer get a ~30% unbreakable punish due to a bug fix.

For me, i like it because it makes me not autopilot my approach to matchups. However, i can clearly see how it’s annoying to others. Especially to top 8 tournament-level players.

#176

I kept my mouth shut for about 5 rounds of nerfs. I dare you to find a single negative post I ever made prior to mid-way through 3.7. Apparently I’m a spoiled kid for being pissed that I invested 3 years into a game that wants to strip everything away from the character I’ve used and loved since season 1. Like DarthStillnox said, I’m sick and tired of having to relearn what crap I’m no longer allowed to use each patch. At this point I’m fully convinced he’ll get nerfed again since despite the fact that there’s only a very small handful of Fulgore players left, every one of you who don’t use him are convinced he’s still incredible.

Also, in your comparison of Fulgore to Orchid damage, guess what? Orchid actually gets meter to use for damage in her combos. Fulgore really can’t spent 4 pips just to add a bit of damage (outside of KNOWING that it will kill).

The thing that is most frustrating to try to convey to you is that his meter game is straight up ■■■■ now. Yes, yes, I know Fulgore with meter is really dangerous because of pip cancelling (even though its been heavily nerfed) but BECAUSE he doesn’t get meter now, you don’t have the luxury of casually blowing a bar in a combo. Comparing her 1 bar combo to his is ludicrous as she actually builds meter! Its pretty clear you don’t play the character, you’re incredibly ignorant of his current state and yet you insult me because I refuse to eat the ■■■■ sandwich that’s being offered to me.

Not to diminish how difficult Aganos is (I’m assuming that’s who you use since he’s your icon) but it must be pretty ■■■■■■■ nice to know that when a patch comes out you’re either going to be left alone or maybe even get a buff. I’m sure that makes it a lot easier to criticize the people who aren’t happy with their nerfs too.

#177

I’m not even sure @TheRealMil, because to be perfectly honest, what are my choices? I could pick a “good” character and risk having them get buried next patch, or I could pick a crap character, but if I were to willingly pick a crap character, why not just keep playing Fulgore? Season 3’s balancing really ruined this game.

Remember season 2? Sure it wasn’t perfectly balanced but at the KIWC for season 2, every single top 16 player used a different character. Why? Because despite some characters being better than others, they all had some sort of craziness. Season 3 is messed up because IG is taking the craziness away from the game one character at a time. Doing this stunts their ability to be viable, while single handedly making the characters who dodged the nerf hammer way too good. For example, Fulgore must’ve still been the best character in the game based on how many nerfs he got, but Mira and Aria are perfectly fine and balanced as they are? And if they aren’t, then what? They get the axe in 3.9? I’m afraid that I’d be wasting my time learning one of them now.

The bottom line is, as crazy as some of the stuff he may have said last season was, @llPaulBll appears to have been right the whole time

#178

Incredible? Maybe not anymore. But even if he’s slipped Top 5, I don’t see any of his changes knocking him out of Top 10.

I disagree pretty strongly with this. As I’ve said a few times now, I think gaining meter has largely been a choice for Gore, and I think that will remain true in 3.8. If I play him after the patch and find that I now have a difficult time getting pips then I will gladly recant, but nothing I’ve seen in the patch notes leads me to believe his meter situation will be substantially different/worse than it is at present. I genuinely don’t think any of these changes makes much of a difference if you’re playing in a style that’s designed to build pips.

Like I said at CEO, I think you’re a more than talented enough Gore player that you could still do significant work with the character if you were so inclined, and I know Lemon will continue being a serious threat. If the character isn’t fun then by all means drop him - but I genuinely don’t think the character has been destroyed or anything. He’ll now just shift to using slightly different pressure options, and will use light DP’s instead of heavy when he wants to back you off.

EDIT: and just as a note, KIWC 2017 Top 16 had something like 17 or 18 characters played. There was a ton of character diversity in there, just as there’s been at virtually every KI tournament since mid-S2 or so.

3 Likes
#179

It’s a matter of perspective.
Who is in worse situation, a strong character who gets toned down, or a weak one who is tuned up?

Well, it depends of where each of them ends. Maybe a character gets nerfs every patch, but is still strong. Maybe a char gets buffs every patch but is still weak. I use Aganos, Gargos and Eyedol mostly, and I have seen a lot of nerfs from a while over Gargos. I may not agree with some, but THE LEAST I can do is try. Some changes seemed big on paper, but when playing, they had less impact that I thought.

I play Fulgore, he is my 4-5th more frequently used character, and I’m pretty confident about my knowledge about the character.[quote=“Paramisery, post:176, topic:20786”]
Also, in your comparison of Fulgore to Orchid damage, guess what? Orchid actually gets meter to use for damage in her combos. Fulgore really can’t spent 4 pips just to add a bit of damage (outside of KNOWING that it will kill).
[/quote]

Thats because Fulgore is a character who has extremelly good mixups, better than Orchid. Fulgore doesn’t really need the meter for damage because he opens his opponent more easily, so he gets often the +200% bonus damage on first hits. Fulgore should focus on resets and hard to stop mixups, not long/high damaging combos[quote=“Paramisery, post:176, topic:20786”]
I kept my mouth shut for about 5 rounds of nerfs. I dare you to find a single negative post I ever made prior to mid-way through 3.7.
[/quote]

It’s not a matter of “you should shut up and adapt”. I don’t want to suggest you to don’t say anything at all. My point is that your take on Fulgore’s changes is pretty negative. You are dooming him before trying the changes, and thats a bad idea IMO.[quote=“Paramisery, post:176, topic:20786”]
only a very small handful of Fulgore players left
[/quote]

I face a lot of Fulgore players in ranked, IMO there are not “a few players left”

#180

@Paramisery Fulgore is unpopular because he’s a complicated character and always has been. I never saw any Fulgore’s online in S1.

Sorry that your character feels like he’s getting weaker and weaker, but like others have said, maybe it’s time to try other characters to maybe help you improve and explore. It’s worth it, trust me.