3.8 suggested changes for Fulgore

Characters Fulgore
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I’m really puzzled by the insistence that Orchid meterlessly canceling slide into DP is comparable to Fulgore pip cancels.

You see Fulgore pip cancels 10+ times per match, and I don’t think I have ever seen Orchid slide -> DP used in any meaningful way outside some dumb gimmick that is just as likely to get her killed as it is to do a bit of damage. It’s just not very good at all, because my options are … block the slide, or block the DP, and get a punish both ways. And I shouldn’t be forward jumping to try and bait slide anyway.

There is a pretty big difference between canceling unsafe opener into REALLY unsafe move, vs canceling a huge space control move into a punish for you dodging that space control (or frame trapping a safe pressure move into another safe pressure move). Yeah?

Paramisery’s point about S2 being crazier than S3 is noted (because it’s true), but I think there is a hugely nuanced discussion to be had here about what is actually too crazy for fighting games and deserves nerfs, and what is just “pretty good” without pushing the boundary (which still exists in spades in S3). S2 was the wild west for KI, and maybe you enjoyed that more than a slightly more measured approach (which is totally fine and up to you), but I think it is much more difficult to pin down the top 10 characters in the game in S3 than it was in S2, where the characters were crazier but the top tier was actually a little bit more set.

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Not to mention Orchid can only cancel slide into buster before the slide connects.

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@SonicDolphin117 I played him since s1, maybe I was being stupidly nostalgic but I wanted to main him since I loved him back in 1994. I’m a little confused though about your statement that Orchid can only cancel slide into buster before the slide connects…how is that any different from Fulgore? If he cancels blade dash into dp on hit its opener ender and you can’t pip cancel on block…

@STORM179 Thank you for the vote of confidence, but I really don’t think I have it in me. Having stuff taken every single patch is incredibly disheartening, especially when I felt the character lost much of what made him fun prior to 3.8. Playing the game frustrates and depresses me now, while I’ll give Eagle a try I’m pretty sure Monday will be the last time I ever play Fulgore.

@infilament How often do you currently see blade dash into dp used in a meaningful way? And if you do, can you please explain how it’s really that different? In either case, the reason I brought it up is because its even more disheartening to see Fulgore lose stuff, and other characters gain things that he does except without the cost of meter. His meter genuinely sucks now, that is single handedly what set me off about the character in 3.7. Wasting even a single pip hurts now.

@Dayv0 Assuming it is unarguably perfectly balanced I suppose it is just a matter of perspective. However, would you rather really train and learn your character inside and out only to have to relearn and adapt to what you’ve lost every couple of months, or would you rather learn your character inside and out and learn that you get to keep everything, and you’ve been given something new if you want to use it? If all of these nerfs happened between season 2 and season 3 and they came all at once then who knows, maybe I’d think differently. But anymore its like, “gee, I wonder what I wasted my time training on this month?” That feeling is bad enough, and the fact that I think the character is sub par now makes it even worse.

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Hello? Fulgore player, right here, telling you he’s top 5 currently? Nicky? Am I having a stroke, what’s going on here?

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Blade dash is a safe on block advancing move that covers a significant portion of the screen but has pretty significant recovery on whiff. A typical way to bait and punish this sort of move is to neutral or back jump…which he can punish with DP. Orchid slide isn’t the same because it’s not safe. She doesn’t get to use it like fulgore does. Her opponent can just block and punish.

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Damm this is a long thread. Thread is like my history with league of legends. I leave it but then someone keeps adding new ■■■■ that makes me curious.

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I believe in you! I just think you might have to look at Fulgore a different​ way. Think about it like this.

During S2, I had a decent TJ. I didn’t find him much fun, as he was a bit too overpowered for me. It wasn’t until the beginning of S3, did I return to the character. But so much had changed from what I’d played! A TON of Nerfs, things changed and removed, and new target combos. So, instead of trying to use my previous knowledge to try and play the character, I had a open mind about it. I treated him like a completely new character, only using my previous knowledge of him to help connect combos and make new ones.

Maybe take that approach and see where it goes? :slight_smile:

Up to you though.

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Well, I was referring to fireball into DP.

Blade dash into DP is better than slide into DP because blade dash is safe, which I think is a pretty important thing to note (ie, doing blade dash in neutral is a good idea, doing slide is generally not).

I guess I don’t see other characters (presumably Orchid) being able to “do the things he does except without cost of meter”, because the Orchid thing is so terrible that nobody does it. They aren’t remotely comparable tools IMO.

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Well here’s the thing. You don’t have to play a character to tell why they’re good. You don’t play omen. I doubt youd disagree that he’s good. I don’t play Mira. Its not hard to see why she’s good. Then Maya who throughout season 3 has been adjusted and nerfed even more than Fulgore has is also still good. I don’t have to play her to tell that. I just have to fight good Maya players. And on the flipside it’s not hard to tell what makes a character bad. I fought a sadira player earlier. I had never heard of the guy But he turned out to be a very good player. But since sadira is ■■■ and I didn’t have to respect much of what he did I still won the set pretty cleanly. When I fight stronger Fulgore’s Maya’s omen hisako players etc the sets are usually close. Because the characters aren’t easy to deal with.

Also idk how many you’ve played outside Fulgore but have you actually played a bad character? Two of My characters started off low tier when they dropped. Now Aganos top 10 Probably. Raam is high mid probably. And omen while he was never bad to start he’s top 4 easily. The difference between playing them then and playing them now the difference is as night and day. Which I think youd see if you choose a character considerably worse than Fulgore.

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I think there is a benefit to playing a bad character. A. You don’t have to worry about them getting nerfed, as they are already nerfed by design. B. It forces you to strengthen your fundamentals because you ain’t going to win any other way. C. With each patch, your character can only go up. :stuck_out_tongue:

I honestly think Sadira getting nerfed to the ground was the best thing that happened to me as a player. While I never tried to master her broken stuff because everybody and their dog knew that junk was going to get nerfed, I did find that I won a lot of matches due to some of her overpowered shenanigans. I won more matches than I had a right to, because much of her stuff was down right unbreakable. In S1 and even more so in S2, I could play a lousy match and pop Instinct and win convincingly.

Now that she’s at the bottom though, I’ve learned to have to play a better neutral game. I have to make legit reads and use all of my resources wisely or I’m going to die really fast. Her getting nerfed made me a better player and I find myself winning far more matches than I’m losing, and the matches that I am losing, are better loses than they used to be. I did a decent job against BH Waterhorse’s Gargos today. It was stacked against me, but I still put up a good show. In short I’m rebounding. I’ve become a better player.

@Paramisery I think this is the attitude that you should have. While Fulgore has been nerfed a bit, he is still in a far better place than Sadira, and even though Sadira is sadly considered one of the worse characters in KI right now, I still win far more fights with her than I lose. I can and do beat Gargos even though that match up is 3/10 Gargos favor.

When Sadira was nerfed to the ground at the beginning of S3, I went from a close 70% win rate all the way down to just barely hovering 50%. However, with time and patience and never giving up on her, I’m now back to a close 63% and only getting better.

I’m not saying that adapting is easy. It isn’t. It doesn’t matter if your character isn’t S Tier anymore. If you like using him, keep playing as him. Yes you won’t be able to get away with as much, but that is a good thing, because it helps you become the better player. I’ve played you a few times and your far from scrub level, so I don’t think you have really anything to worry about.

Don’t look at nerfs so negative. Think of them as opportunities to find new ways to use Fulgore, strengthen your own weaknesses and improve your game. You’ll be a better player for it. Believe me, it isn’t the end of the world. It’s the beginning of something better.

Also… nerf and or remove Rash please and thank you! :smiley: Kappa

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Oh sweet a character thread of mains vs. non mains arguing about nerfs! I’m sure there will be no hyperbole or unfair comparisons.

@Paramisery I feel you dude. Ignoring the nerfs and how you feel about them people can not objectively argue that patches frequently mean relearning ways to play this character.

I come from Season 1 not Season 3. Just to list some of the changes off of the top of my head. Fireballs they were originally designed for zoning not mixups, teleport inputs, reactor charging, hype beam damage, lasers, fireball damage, character damage, heavy laser multiple times, medium laser, light laser, reactor again, teleport DP’s, regular DP’s, And now we go back from using medium to light laser, heavy kick, and I don’t know I’m going to fall asleep trying to recall everything that’s been changed.

But IG has touched pretty much every aspect of this character often resulting in having to completely change the muscle memory you developed prior.

Some people think that’s a good thing it keeps things fresh. Other people hate it they wonder what’s the point when ■■■■ is just going to change again? You can take either side, but you CANNOT deny that Fulgore players have had to deal with many many changes since S1 and I argue more than any other character but feel free to debate that point I’d like to see a character who has had as many aspects of them changed. Might be interesting at some point to dig through the patch notes and do an actual Tally.

Anyways when I saw these nerfs I just chuckled. You gotta just have fun with the game. I wouldn’t blame you for not playing Fulgore anymore they just hurt him they didn’t give him anything new and fun so he’s going play the same just a little worse, but there are plenty of other characters you might enjoy playing so give them a shot.

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One thing I do not understand was the frame change on the normals incl jago etc, If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

I mean i did read why they changed it, but even after the frame nerfs to some specials I feel this change was really quite unnecessary.

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To answer his question I used cLK because it was quicker up close, and cHK for a knockdown, but I’m pretty sure his question was rhetorical. Ultimately you still use cMK the same way you just lose your turn now. So I don’t really follow the logic of trying to add button diversity since I see no reason to do anything different than before I just now have to accept losing my offense. We Street Fighter now boys!

I will say having played a fair amount of NRS games there can be instances where oppressive +block offense gets pretty degenerate and boring. Whatching Atrocitus with dextar out doing safe 50/50 block strings for the entirety of the trait = ZZZzzzzzzzz. That said I don’t think Jago/Fulgors cMK were close to doing that. Ah well, anyways like I said not a huge deal still press them like you did just know your options after have changed.

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Call me a scrub, but I’m just happy that when Jago and Fulgore press cr.mk now they have to sit there and take whatever I do afterwards and have absolutely no tools to make me worry about retaliating, big weight off my shoulders. I always felt sorry for these guys after someone blocks there negative but safe specials, they’ve always been so helpless.

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Degenerative=/=powerful

Degenerative strategies doesn’t mean to be super powerful, they are just better than anything else, so the character never uses his other tools.

In Fulgore’s example, both his c.lk and c.mk were nerfed. Why? Because if Fulgore was in range of c.mk, why should you use mp at all? It’s a low, so it not only had good frame data, it also had more chances to open someone than most Fulgore buttons.

Is c.lk/c.mk useless? Not at all, you still have the opportunity to cancel both into blade dash, a safer move

Fulgore is a really hard to block character. H/L, R/L, throws… he has specials which hit low, a fast overhead which you can cancel into a low, frame traps…

This change suggest you to use other buttons in some situations. I don’t see the change so dramatic. [quote=“MBABanemobius, post:194, topic:20786”]
Call me a scrub
[/quote]

Yo, scrub!

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Rather be a scrub than a shrub, you big walking garden.

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You use MP because it hits mid and not low which would hit low crush moves…

I’m confused are these real questions? Do we need a lesson on basic fighting game normals?

Fighting game normals is not a new concept some of you I feel know this as you’ve shown in prior posts that you’ve obtained this knowledge. There is a purpose for a move that hits low, a move that hits mid, a move that comes out faster, a move that knocks down, a move that anti-airs, a move that hits further way, a move that has long hit stun, etc.

If you want to say the move was too good say it. But I’m sorry I’m not buying this hyperbolic BS of the move being his Trump option to all of his other normals because that wasn’t/isn’t the case.
How can we have a meaningful dialog if the conversation is going to devolve to blanket generalities.

I like Kiets, I think he’s done a great job. KI is my favorite fighting game. But implying that cMK was the only button and the other buttons served no purpose because of how good it is makes no sense. And through his own logic he slams himself and his team. If the button was as dumb as he says it is, clearly Fulgores only button people should be using then why the hell did it take them this long to adjust something so obvious?

Lets call a spade a spade. They thought the button was too good against other characters. And perhaps it was you can debate that. But it’s illogical to say because of it his other buttons served no purpose. I follow the logic of it being a balance change, they thought it was too good so now it’s worse and the balance has shifted, that makes sense. But lets not pretend it’s some gift to Fulgore players where they want to diversify his button options.

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always a positive voice brother, i would heed your advice if i was in the position our friend here is in. my fulgore is still middle of the road decent, i just cant do DP’s in this damn game. OH but in harder games like SNK BS i can do DP’s all day -_-

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Guys, cut @Paramisery some slack. Whether his points are valid or not you cannot deny that this patch NERFS Fulgore once more and nobody likes it when their mains gets made worse. It’s easier to remain objective when these changes don’t affect you. I think the root of most of his frustration is in that it appears everyone believes this change has been needed for a long time and is quick to jump down his throat when he protests against said changes. I believe that this game is perhaps one of the most balanced fighting games I’ve ever played and even though there is a tier list that’s debatable in some instances, there isn’t a character you could pick out and say that they are absolutely perfect and therefore broken so whenever changes come it always feels significant. So enough with the animosity and git gud scrub mentality, because unfortunately whether we like it or not the changes are coming regardless so it’s not as if @Paramisery’s protests as well as my own are going to take away the nerfs that others seem to crave for Fulgore anyway…

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True, this is just like what happens to Roadhog mains in OW and how others treat them after he was nerfed
XD